Ojai Sulcata Project, Open House

[Tom]

HA! Now we're talkin'!

I don't know the answers to any of those questions, but they are GREAT. Dean and I speculated about some of this on the drive home. Tomas is already working on these things. He already has some sort of telemetry device that will be inserted into the burrows to record temps and humidity. It will probably be at least a year or two before we ever see this info, but eventually we'll get answers. He has plans to have researchers study and record the habits of wild hatchlings, but I fear that will be very difficult. If the researcher is too close they will not behave normally. If the researcher is far enough away, they will disappear into the bush. I think at best we can only hope for pieces of info about what they do. I think more might be learned by setting up cameras in a very large "natural" style enclosure somewhere within the natural range, so that outside heat or any other interference would not be necessary.

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

HA! Now we're talkin'!

I don't know the answers to any of those questions, but they are GREAT. Dean and I speculated about some of this on the drive home. Tomas is already working on these things. He already has some sort of telemetry device that will be inserted into the burrows to record temps and humidity. It will probably be at least a year or two before we ever see this info, but eventually we'll get answers. He has plans to have researchers study and record the habits of wild hatchlings, but I fear that will be very difficult. If the researcher is too close they will not behave normally. If the researcher is far enough away, they will disappear into the bush. I think at best we can only hope for pieces of info about what they do. I think more might be learned by setting up cameras in a very large "natural" style enclosure somewhere within the natural range, so that outside heat or any other interference would not be necessary.

Now that is what I would like to do for my career !!! How do you get into the researching Sulcata tortoises in wild Africa career ?
a-w-e-s-o-m-e
Thats a really good idea about just creating a fenced in very large enclosure with stationed cameras so that they can do their natural thing and just be recorded by the cameras without any people or other factors disturbing what they do naturally.
I can barely keep up with my baby Sulcata in my back yard, they are so hard to spot sometimes even when you turn away for only a second.

 

[Zamric]

Ummm I like the concept of accually doing that study, but the life expectancy of a middle-aged, white man in wild Africa is WAY to short!

And as for the fact that tortoise has the forsight to harvest a crop for future use, just BLOWS my mind!!! I know mammals do but i never thought a reptial was capable of these actions.

 

[Tom]

Ummm I like the concept of accually doing that study, but the life expectancy of a middle-aged, white man in wild Africa is WAY to short!

This is exactly what Tomas told me. He was laughing as he said it too.

Those of us who keep sulcatas know darn well how smart and perceptive they are, but this is still a big surprise to me. The only thing that I have heard like this is when Manouria gather up vegetation into a big pile to make their nests. I REALLY want to go see this first hand! Tomas has invited me to Senegal, but making it happen is another story. Can you imagine the TFO posts after a trip like that? I think I would drive everyone crazy with my ranting and raving. And when do you go? During the hot rainy season or the hotter dry season?

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

Ummm I like the concept of accually doing that study, but the life expectancy of a middle-aged, white man in wild Africa is WAY to short!

This is exactly what Tomas told me. He was laughing as he said it too.

Those of us who keep sulcatas know darn well how smart and perceptive they are, but this is still a big surprise to me. The only thing that I have heard like this is when Manouria gather up vegetation into a big pile to make their nests. I REALLY want to go see this first hand! Tomas has invited me to Senegal, but making it happen is another story. Can you imagine the TFO posts after a trip like that? I think I would drive everyone crazy with my ranting and raving. And when do you go? During the hot rainy season or the hotter dry season?

Tom I totally have an answer for when you should go , during hot rainy and hotter dry season
random question how hot is he hotter dry season? In Texas this past summer it was pretty much 110 degrees almost every day and that was just plain awful

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Another question here that has to do with the topic some what is that isn't 110 degrees in the summer extremely hot for a hatchling tortoise like Gupta to stay outside in ?

 

[Tom]

I've looked on weather sites, but don't trust them. I'm waiting for Tomas to tell me himself. One site is telling me that its right around 100 for the next five days in the Eastern portion of Senegal. Another site says that same thing but cooling into the mid 80's for some rain in a couple of days. I'm not sure, but I think this is the tail end of the rainy season over there. I need to spend some more time studying the weather over there. I looked it all up years ago, but we have much better sites and info now.

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Just to prove my own point, here's a third site with city by city breakdowns.
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=senegal+africa

 

[Linzbragg]

it's amazing to learn that they are so intelligent that they plan ahead like that and actually carry greens into their burrows...

They're silent amazing creatures, figuring it all out during their eons on earth.

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I was actually really happy you posted this information because I had been wondering for a while how wild Sulcatas that spent so much time in their burrows got enough food and sunlight. I was going to start a thread and ask , I am wondering though what keeps it all from rotting in such humid burrows and molding ? Maybe they just eat it after it goes bad
Do the hatchlings do into the burrows with the older ones?

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and why if they spend months and months in their burrows without sunshine they don't get soft shells and bones like they would if in captivity we kept them for half the year without any source of sunlight

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Also when I was reading the information on the website of the Ojai Sulcata Project about how they suggest you raise your hatchlings and such it was very different from the way I am raising Gupta. Much lower humidity (40-50%) and no daily soaks and to use UV lights and lots of other things that just plain confused me

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Are you saying you have low humidity, don't do daily soaked, or use UV lights?

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

No , sorry I was typing to fast and it reads back kinda weird now, I was saying that when you go to the Ojai Sulcata Project Webstite they have care sheets that recommend low humidity for hatchlings (45-50%) saying that high humidity like 80% is very unnatural for them.
Also reccomends to never, ever feed store bought greens
That artificial UV light for 12 hours a day is very unnatural and not needed
They also say that you don't need any heat at all during the night time (way, way against the at least 80 degrees that is a kinda basic on the forum for Sulcata)
Also say not to soak your Sulcata because its unnatural mainly because it causes them to deficate too quickly.

I was just saying that this care sheet is kinda the opposite of how I was advise to raise Gupta and how a lot of people raise their Sulcata on this forum. Mainly people do high, high humidity and soaks and artificial lighting and store bought greens. I think this is mainly because they don't have to means to raise their Sulcatas like the Ojai Project does. They are located in Cali where its almost always sunny and warm.
Where as the people on the forum that live in places further north or even in Texas right now we haven't had sun in WEEKS, no sun at all.
I mean you go to the website and you can see very clearly that how they raise their Sulcata works beautifully for them, they have an awesome system but it just simply won't work for everyone.

I am not saying in the least that the people at Ojai Sulcata are wrong , their system works for them. I mainly was trying to point out that its kinda amazing how a group of people can raise Sulcatas one way and that work perfectly for them but another group of people may read that care sheet and try it and it turn out disastrous for them.

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I've looked on weather sites, but don't trust them. I'm waiting for Tomas to tell me himself. One site is telling me that its right around 100 for the next five days in the Eastern portion of Senegal. Another site says that same thing but cooling into the mid 80's for some rain in a couple of days. I'm not sure, but I think this is the tail end of the rainy season over there. I need to spend some more time studying the weather over there. I looked it all up years ago, but we have much better sites and info now.

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Just to prove my own point, here's a third site with city by city breakdowns.
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/hdfForecast?query=senegal+africa

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Does Thomas allow visitors to his Sulcata rescue in Senegal?
Or is it an invitation only?
Cause before I have children, get married, and after I get out of school , which is happening within the next three years, I would seriously love to go there...
I think it would be fascinating to see what they do on a day to day basis there and learn about their research and see their Sulcata. I know africa is like crazy dangerous but still it would be a huge adventure.
I would bring pepperspray...

 

[Tom]

If you wan to go there find the African Chelonian Institute online and send them an email.

I don't know that the Ojai system works beautifully for them, or even at all. I have not seen any hatchlings raised that way. When we were there all we saw were juveniles and adults that were living outside. This is a question I am working on. Dave and I are going to meet up for dinner or something and talk for a few hours. That is one of my most pressing questions for him. "Have you raised hatchlings with the system you describe, or is it more for older ones?"
I've asked him to come to my ranch, check out my system and my enclosures and then help me do a set up the "Dave Friend Way". He's going to tell me how he wants me to set my temps and timers and how I should care for them. It will be yet another of my experiments. I want him to actually come here to do it, so that we are sure it is all done his way. I will post all the parameters and then do progress updates regularly. My plan is to split a newly hatched clutch into two groups and raise one group my way and one group Dave's way concurrently. This way the weather will be the same, the genetics will be the same, they will be raised in the same room. Everything will be identical EXCEPT for the changes that Dave wants me to make.


... and Brinn... pepper spray is highly ineffective against truck loads of hostiles with AK47's. Just saying...

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

If you wan to go there find the African Chelonian Institute online and send them an email.

I don't know that the Ojai system works beautifully for them, or even at all. I have not seen any hatchlings raised that way. When we were there all we saw were juveniles and adults that were living outside. This is a question I am working on. Dave and I are going to meet up for dinner or something and talk for a few hours. That is one of my most pressing questions for him. "Have you raised hatchlings with the system you describe, or is it more for older ones?"
I've asked him to come to my ranch, check out my system and my enclosures and then help me do a set up the "Dave Friend Way". He's going to tell me how he wants me to set my temps and timers and how I should care for them. It will be yet another of my experiments. I want him to actually come here to do it, so that we are sure it is all done his way. I will post all the parameters and then do progress updates regularly. My plan is to split a newly hatched clutch into two groups and raise one group my way and one group Dave's way concurrently. This way the weather will be the same, the genetics will be the same, they will be raised in the same room. Everything will be identical EXCEPT for the changes that Dave wants me to make.

... and Brinn... pepper spray is highly ineffective against truck loads of hostiles with AK47's. Just saying...

I googled the "African Chelonian Institute" and didn't come up with anything except something about a TSA (Turtle Survival Alliance) unfortunately, I was going to ask if they had a website and such.
O okay I see. I just assumed that he had raised hatchlings this way because it was under the Juveniles section with pictures of little bitty hatchlings. I can't wait to hear if he does or not and am even more interested in seeing your experiment and its results.
I had always thought I wouldn't get any more Sullies after Gupta because they can be so territorial and aggressive but now I might be second guessing that a little. Especially since I will always live in the country, city life would kill me. There amazing animals, remind me so much of dinosaurs.
On a side note about the truck load of hostiles with AK47's and may completely inadequate pepper spray, is it that bad in Africa around Senegal? Is it as bad as Mexico right now with all the drug wars and cartels or worse? My grandfather, grandmother, and aunt went to Africa not so many years ago but it was for a mission for their church to help the locals. Of course different parts of Africa are different and I am not sure what part they went to.

 

[DeanS]

See post #15

Hey Tom where's your picture!

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

See post #15

Hey Tom where's your picture!

Thanks so much!!! I've been looking at a bunch of trip places and such to get around how much that all would cost and oo man its a lot of money haha

 

[Shelly]

is it that bad in Africa around Senegal? Is it as bad as Mexico right now with all the drug wars and cartels or worse?

Makes Mexico look like a bunch of Mennonites.

 

[Jacqui]

Sooooo, if these wild sulcata will drag food into their burrows, why is it nobody has one in captivity that does the same thing?????? Even folks who have large sulcata which live in their burrows all year long, never talk about this happening. You would think just it would have happened to somebody, somewhere along the way.

 

[EricIvins]

The animal Poachers use AK-47s..........

The people Poachers use Machetes........

Yes, Africa is bad........Especially to outsiders........

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Sooooo, if these wild sulcata will drag food into their burrows, why is it nobody has one in captivity that does the same thing?????? Even folks who have large sulcata which live in their burrows all year long, never talk about this happening. You would think just it would have happened to somebody, somewhere along the way.

The problem with that logic is the fact that alot of people don't give their Tortoises massive amounts of food for them to store like the seasons dictate in Africa.........

Part two would be the fact that the animals may not recognize the food we offer in captivity as "storeable".......It may be a very specific behavior associated with specific types of Vegetation.......

 

[Zamric]

Im sure its a learned action from its elders.

 

[Jacqui]

Im sure its a learned action from its elders.

From a type of animal that we say does NOT stay around others of it's kind except to mate??? If these animals roamed in colonies then may be you could use this theory.

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The problem with that logic is the fact that alot of people don't give their Tortoises massive amounts of food for them to store like the seasons dictate in Africa.........

Part two would be the fact that the animals may not recognize the food we offer in captivity as "storeable".......It may be a very specific behavior associated with specific types of Vegetation.......

Any sulcata who lives in a well planted range, should mimic this behavior, even if it is not the exact type of food. It should see grass, as grass and atleast make the attempt to try to store it. I do not believe in the name of survival that nature would tell them hey, ignore all but grass CBN, which you have never even saw in your lifetime, and starve rather then trying new types of plants. This just does not seem feasible or rational.

 

[DeanS]

Im sure its a learned action from its elders.

From a type of animal that we say does NOT stay around others of it's kind except to mate??? If these animals roamed in colonies then may be you could use this theory.

BUT...and that's a big but...what if these guys roamed in colonies prior to their numbers being decimated...too far-fetched?

 

[Zamric]

Jacqui your right.... WE do say that... but as we all found out just recently.... most of what we THINK we know about wild sulcatas is complete speculation, nothing more.

 

[dmarcus]

I think it's going to be hard to say with accuracy what they did prior to there numbers being reduced due to the pet trade. We are learning something new all the time and at this point I wouldn't say that something isn't plausible.

I am sure once Tomas Diagne finishes compiling all his data and everyone gets to see it, we will have a lot more things to think about and consider.