One care sheet to rule them all?

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Madkins007

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There has long been a rather quiet debate over whether or not most tortoises benefit from a similar care program. I have to admit that I am rapidly becoming a believer in the idea that perhaps we could create a generic care sheet and then add notes on how to adapt it for young torts, and some specific species needs.

So... here is a caresheet with that in mind, posted in several parts. Your job, should you choose to accept it, is to blow it apart. That is, show us where it is wrong and why. I do politely request that the attacks be based on research or experience and not beliefs, out-dated teachings, or abstract theory.

Important note: This is an experiment. It IS NOT MEANT to be an actual care sheet (at least at this point)!

TORTOISE CARE- HOUSING

SIZE- The bigger the better, within reason. Aim for a minimum of about 8 shell lengths by 4 shell lengths to allow enough room to explore and exercise. Increase the size if adding more tortoises (doubling it would be nice).

HIDES- Provide an assortment of shelters if possible, with one shelter being very humid. Shelters can include plants to hide under, boxes or tubs turned upside down, flowerpots on their sides, etc. [Note that here we could provide examples of a 'humid hide', as well as more types of shelters]

SUBSTRATE- Many substrates have proven to be effective and each has its pros and cons. Here are a few commonly used versions-
- Plain cypress or similar mulch is perhaps the easiest.
- A mixture of sand, soil, and materials like peat moss, long-fibered sphagnum moss, coconut coir (Bed-A-Beast), etc. can mimic the behaviors of natural dirt, especialy with the addition of worms, isopods, and some outdoor soil for the beneficial micro-organisms. A layer of a dryer mulch on top helps prevent any moisture problems. This should be raked and mixed periodicially for maximum effectiveness.
- Teased and dampened long-fibered sphagnum moss is helpful for young tortoises.

WATER- Tortoises should always have access to fresh drinking water. A good water dish is set flush to the substrate surface, big enough for the tortoise to sit in, deep enough that it can immerse it's head to drink, shallow enough that it can sit in it safely- no more than about 1/3-1/2 of the shell's height, easy to climb into and out of, and made of materials that you would feel safe drinking out of. [Examples of dishes can be offered here.]

Wash the dish often and keep it filled. You can help keep it cleaner by positioning it away from a wall or main pathway and surrounding it with a 'patio' of some sort so the tortoise is not dragging in mud and substrate.

OUTDOORS- Most tortoises do best outside. In general, the night temps should be over 70F for young tortoises and 65F for adults. The pen should be both escape proof and predator proof. [Notes as to how to do this can be added here.]

The ideal tortoise pen offers plenty of hiding places and shelters, cool shade and open sunny areas, and live plants to hide under or forage on. They also offer relief from exces heat, such as misters, mud puddles, etc. [Add a list of tortoise plants here.]

INDOOR HOUSING- Aquariums can be used for very small tortoises, but these are generally heavy, stuffy, and expensive- especialy as the tortoise grows. Large plastic tubs are cheap and easy to make into good homes for small and medium tortoises. Tortoise tables are open-topped habitiats similar to a bookcase on its back that offer a lot of space for growing or large animals. [Discuss how to modify a tub and build a table here.]

ENHANCEMENTS- We can make the housing more interesting for our tortoises by adding things like different substrates (an area of smooth rocks, a mud puddle, etc.), gentle hills (many species really like hills!), using real (and safe) plants, etc.


..................................

Thoughts, concerns, alternative ideas? I'll post one on environment, and another on diet over the next few days- and of course, anyone else can do the same.

The goal here is to see if this is possible. COULD we, in theory, write a care booklet that would work for all commonly kept tortoises, with small comments about different issues for different species, like Ed/EJ and others have suggested?
 

chadk

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I like to provide hides on the warm end and the cool end so they have a choice. I also like them to have digable substrate in the hides. All my torts seem to enjoy burying themselves in a nice blanket of dirt when they go to sleep in their hides. (my hatchlings bury themselves in the moist spag moss). And I like hides that are dark and 'snug'. A tiny tort going into a massive flower pot or huge box is not really a 'hide'.

A discussion of UVA vs UVB and different bulb and heat sources would be good. Seems lots of folks get confused on that.
 

terryo

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That's really cool Mark. I don't know anything about tortoises, but I've had boxie's for over thirty years, and that would apply to boxie care also. (generally speaking...the one's I keep anyway)
 

purpod

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Greetings Mark,

You may want to mention that there are aquariums made specifically for tort's, that are low (avoiding the stuffiness) and large (allowing for a more significant base size than a regular aquarium). I have a "bedroom" for my tort's that sits atop my entertainment center & measures 4'Lx2'Wx10"H. I was lucky & purchased it from a local pet store who had it for sale for only $35.00!

For the most part, my tort's are outside in a 10'x10' 'home', but sleep inside at night, as they are youngsters.

Anyways, just a thought,
Purpod
 

terryo

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Thirty Five dollars was a steal. I have the same one and paid...I think, if I remember correctly...$150.
 

purpod

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Indeed, Terry, I literally flew to the bank to grab the cash, lol! It was slightly used, but a good bleach water washing & much rinsing made the enclosure just like new (not that is was filthy or anything, but you know what I mean) ~

So there are some deals out there if one looks & acts quickly (with a bit of luck).. and it makes a great 'bedroom' for youngsters who need to sleep indoors ~

Have a great day :cool:
Purpod
terryo said:
Thirty Five dollars was a steal. I have the same one and paid...I think, if I remember correctly...$150.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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They are called vivariums or vivs for short and they are more easily found in the UK and not here which is why Terry paid so much for hers. I am seeing them more here but you really have to search for them. I have one now with 4 small tortoises in it and I just love it. It's so much easier to regulate the heat. I had my friend make me one of wood but I don't like that one as much. Any how they are vivs and much better for torts then aquariums...

You might want to mention that tortoises kept inside will need UVB lighting and that it does not need to be on 14 hours a day. I keep a 100 watt incandescent bulb on 12 hours a day and about 3 times a week for 3 or 4 hours I turn on UVB lights for the animals that can't go outside yet. I do use calcium w/D3. Spring may be popping out all over but here in the Willamette Valley we are still cold and raining daily.
 

terryo

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For humidity loving tortoises, and boxies, I think they are the best. Years ago, my dad would cut off a few inches from his fish tanks and use them for his boxie hatchlings. Today they are a lot easier to find and most pet stores sell them as breeder tanks.
 

Madkins007

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Many good points.

It seems to me that if there indeed IS 'ONE CARE SHEET', then we could issue it as a double-side piece of paper as a starter, a booklet as an expansion, but the COOL THING would be that you could do a book that goes into a lot of detail- how to waterproof a tortoise table, nutritional charts, the 'why' behind the instructions, etc.- the stuff that is all too often missing from most care instructions.
 

purpod

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Salutations ~

Yes, indeed, including things such as what has been mentioned is sure to make even a novice tort or turt owner better prepared & equipped to create an environment where thriving is not just an option, but a reality.

Good luck with it,
Purpod
 

chairman

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If there is a generic care sheet that can be used for the majority of tortoise species, what reason are we going to offer for why torts of different species can't live together? Diet is too easy an obstacle to overcome, size differences and aggressiveness need to be dealt with when only 1 species is kept, and the parasite thing is hard to sell to a lot of newbies.

But more to the spirit of the thread, I think one care sheet might get a little sloppy looking because of the various exceptions that would need to be made in some sections... perhaps 2 could do the trick? Grassland tortoises and forest tortoises? Differences that come to my mind are lighting requirements (visible and UV spectrums), temperatures (forest torts usually like it cooler and don't seem to bask), and diet (forest torts get animal protein, fruit regularly).
 

Madkins007

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chairman said:
If there is a generic care sheet that can be used for the majority of tortoise species, what reason are we going to offer for why torts of different species can't live together? Diet is too easy an obstacle to overcome, size differences and aggressiveness need to be dealt with when only 1 species is kept, and the parasite thing is hard to sell to a lot of newbies.

But more to the spirit of the thread, I think one care sheet might get a little sloppy looking because of the various exceptions that would need to be made in some sections... perhaps 2 could do the trick? Grassland tortoises and forest tortoises? Differences that come to my mind are lighting requirements (visible and UV spectrums), temperatures (forest torts usually like it cooler and don't seem to bask), and diet (forest torts get animal protein, fruit regularly).

This was my thought for a long time- forest vs. grassland, but more and more I think that there may be few REAL differences there.

Light- deep forest species like it dimmer- that can be handled in a single sentence. From what I can find in field notes, forest torts do bask, especially after long sunless periods. It would be interesting to see an actual study on basking periods in various species- when, why, how long, etc. There may not be as much difference here as we think since most tortoises are so shy by nature.

Temps- most torts seem to overlap nicely at about 80F. If we offered a 75-85 range, is there a species that is commonly kept that would be stressed by that? I know some species can tolerate higher and lower temps, but would they be happy in this range?

Diet- Forests are more omnivorous, but do they NEED to be? Most of my research is based on Red-foots, and most current authors seem to feel pretty strongly that they do not NEED fruit or meat in an otherwise proper diet. Of course, issues like this are why I posted this in the debate section! :)

Multiple species- I often wonder about the reality of this. Zoos, breeders, large scale keepers, etc. often mix species freely with rare problems, and it has been said in this forum before that a lot of people give lip service to it without practicing it themselves.

I KNOW that the issues of cross-contamination are real, but managable (quarantines, preventative cares, etc.), and that the biggest example of the problem seems to affect mostly wild Desert Tortoises.

Personally, I think the biggest risks are interspecific interactions. The subtle bullying, big ones walking over little ones, jostling for food and shelter, etc. all add to the stresses of daily life and wear down the immune system. I think it gets even worse between species that do not use the same body language or cues, or that are known for being rather aggressive, and so on.

This may be another thread, but perhaps the guidelines should be to avoid: any crowding, mixing big and little, mixing quiet and active/aggressive, etc.? And, of course, to be sure to use proper quarantine and hygiene procedures.


NOTE: I AM NOT disagreeing- just wondering- hence the 'debate' element!
 

chairman

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The temperature problem, especially basking temps, is the one I see to be the biggest. It could be addressed in one sentence, but it had better be bold or in capital letters. My poor hingebacks would probably estivate their lives away in a sulcata enclosure; they rarely want anything to do with temps in the mid 80's, let alone 90-100. And I'm not sure that my sulcata could adequately digest its food in my hingeback enclosure, which is usually set from 70 to 80.

As for diet, because forest species don't absorb a lot of sunlight I think they need the D2/D3 they find in prey to be healthy. In the grand scheme of things I don't think it'd be harmful to recommend "feeding" all tortoises live worms. The forest torts would hunt them down and the grassland torts would ignore them, allowing the worms to process waste materials in the substrate. The difference would be that your sulcata would be living on top of a worm farm while you would have to maintain a separate worm farm to keep up with your forest tortoise's apetite.

Mixing species is a beat-the-dead-horse debate until more data comes in, but I think that any generic care sheet should specifically warn against it so the phrase "and in the darkness bind them" doesn't apply to this care sheet too.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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There's many good points brought up that show just why there isn't a generic care sheet.:)
Any worms would die in the heat of a Sulcata enclosure. So I don't think that Marks point about them living on top of a worm farm is valid...Heaven knows I have killed many a worm under a hot basking light.
When I was a new keeper and just starting to head start Gopherus agassizii for a turtle and tortoise rescue I put the hatchlings in with my Sulcata. At that time I had 3 Sulcata yearlings all growing and healthy. This was years ago so details evade my memory now but the Sulcata started acting not just right so I took them to the Vet and he found a parasite who's name evades me as well. So then I took the Gopherus hatchlings to the vet and they were loaded with this parasite but growing and thriving. So the vet decided the parasites were normally in the host Gopherus and not normally in the now not thriving Sulcata.
Since that time I don't ever mix species. I know there are experienced keepers who do mix species but I think because they ARE experienced they would know what signs to watch for when a new animal is introduced to the resident colony.
I also think it's important to mention that chelonia are not dogs and cats and they shouldn't be kept like them ie: not living on the floor of your apartment. There are so many new keepers especially in India and China and smaller countries like that and they get a tortoise and keep it like a dog and then get on the forum looking for answers when the animal gets sick from living on the floor of a house or an apartment. But I don't know how you could say that in a politically correct way.:)
So those are my thoughts now...
 

chadk

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Worms would live fine in my indoor sulcata enclosure. I have a hot end in the mid 80's with 2 basking areas in the mid to upper 90s. But the rest of the enclosure is more like 70-75. And then I have 6 inches of moist substrate. The area around and under my water dish would be very popular with the worms I'm sure.

Outdoors, my tort yard is stuffed with worms and other bugs, slugs, snails, etc.

As for the hingeback and sullie situation, I bet they would both live comfortably in the setup I have. With enough space, you can create several microclimates from high humidity to low humidity and from very hot areas to moderately cool areas.
 

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where's frodo?
 

Madkins007

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I've been waiting for Lord of the Rings references to pop up with this title!

OK, temp question- Is the issue the SPECIES, the AGE, and/or the HABITAT SIZE? In other words, you are saying 95ish for Sulcata and 80ish for Hinge-back. Would you do 95F for young Sulcata in a smallish tub? Would you worry about 95F in a corner of a 10'x10' tortoise pen for Hinge-backs?

I AM NOT up on Sulcata care (living in Omaha on a small plot it seems cruel to even think about keeping them or Leopards) so I am just asking. Do Sulcata need a large 95F area, or just pretty much a tortoise-sized area?

As for the affect temps have on the 'one sheet' idea, it would be easy enough to discuss temps without specifics, then a simple chart of which species want warmer or cooler ranges if it came to that.

chairman said:
As for diet, because forest species don't absorb a lot of sunlight I think they need the D2/D3 they find in prey to be healthy. In the grand scheme of things I don't think it'd be harmful to recommend "feeding" all tortoises live worms. The forest torts would hunt them down and the grassland torts would ignore them, allowing the worms to process waste materials in the substrate. The difference would be that your sulcata would be living on top of a worm farm while you would have to maintain a separate worm farm to keep up with your forest tortoise's apetite.

Based on what little I can find on the issue, worms are not a real great source of D3, but fungi are rich in D2, and a common tort food.

There is a quite reasonable theory that forest species eat omnivorously because so much of the plant life in the forest is so nutritionally poor. What carbs, sugars, vitamins, minerals, etc. plants can spare goes into the fruits to help the next generation. To oversimplify, in this theory, forest torts eat greens for fiber and water, then fruits and meats for other nutrients.

As mentioned, most of this is from research on Red-foots, which are sort of a half-way species between grassy and foresty, so it may not apply at all to Hinge-backs, etc.
 

purpod

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Maggie brings up a good point about the parasites; an inexperienced tort keeper may not have caught that the sullie starting "acting not just right"...

Also, I know my leopards like the heat turned up, so altho 80F would do, it would not be ideal...

Lots of good thoughts going around ~
Nice, civil debatable topic, Mark ~
Purpod :)
 

Madkins007

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It seems that most of the parasite cross problems I have heard of involve Sulcata and/or Desert. We know Desert are very susceptible to picking up infections from other species and if I was adding to my 'no-no' rules for multi-species housing it would be to keeper US native species apart from anything else.
 
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