Opinions on Force Feed & Behaviors

[ahmadyazidozi]

Hello,
I've followed the forum for a good while, but this is my first time posting a thread...
I am posting this because I am unsure of what to do and would like to hear your opinions on it...

He just had a flu with seen symptoms were occasional bubble from nostril, and cute cough/sneeze.
I had no reptile vet in my City, so I bought a rept-med (medication for pneumonia) online and had fed it to him for 5 days based on various info I found on the internet (forums, youtubes, sites).

Now theres no more bubbles from nostril for 2 days already, but his appetite is even lower.
He's only having occasional bites on hand-fed pellets (2-3 per day) and not even touching his greens.

His usual healthy appetite could finish 7-9 pellets in the morning & another 7 in the evening, and also finished his greens by the end of the day.

For the record, he still poop & excrete urates daily but in smaller proportion.
His enclosure temp is around 27-30°C by night, and 30-36°C during the day. I use ceramic heater & spiral UVB lamp. I often spray to retain 80%+ humidity (5-10 a day, extra when AC on). I am using Coco Husk + Coco Peat as substrate. I also gave him calcium powder & vitamins once a week. Daily 10-15 minutes warm water soak & natural sunlight in the morning.

So, seeing his appetite for 2 days, Should I force feed him??
Thank you so much in advance for any of your input.

I can dump more information if needed.

This is my first time having a tortoise, and here is the little baby Sulcata:

Here's the enclosure:

Here are some videos of him when having a flu:

Tortoise_ YouTube - Google Drive

drive.google.com

The Rept-Med description:


His fav pellets description:

 

[Yvonne G]

No, don't force feed. As long as he's eating a bit, just wait and see. Giving a tortoise antibiotics makes them feel a bit ill and puts them off their feed for a while. Soak him in warm water daily for about a half hour. He should perk up soon. But read our care sheet and make any changes necessary to bring his habitat up to standard for his species.

 

[Tom]

Hello,
I've followed the forum for a good while, but this is my first time posting a thread...
I am posting this because I am unsure of what to do and would like to hear your opinions on it...

He just had a flu with seen symptoms were occasional bubble from nostril, and cute cough/sneeze.
I had no reptile vet in my City, so I bought a rept-med (medication for pneumonia) online and had fed it to him for 5 days based on various info I found on the internet (forums, youtubes, sites).

Now theres no more bubbles from nostril for 2 days already, but his appetite is even lower.
He's only having occasional bites on hand-fed pellets (2-3 per day) and not even touching his greens.

His usual healthy appetite could finish 7-9 pellets in the morning & another 7 in the evening, and also finished his greens by the end of the day.

For the record, he still poop & excrete urates daily but in smaller proportion.
His enclosure temp is around 27-30°C by night, and 30-36°C during the day. I use ceramic heater & spiral UVB lamp. I often spray to retain 80%+ humidity (5-10 a day, extra when AC on). I am using Coco Husk + Coco Peat as substrate. I also gave him calcium powder & vitamins once a week. Daily 10-15 minutes warm water soak & natural sunlight in the morning.

So, seeing his appetite for 2 days, Should I force feed him??
Thank you so much in advance for any of your input.

I can dump more information if needed.

This is my first time having a tortoise, and here is the little baby Sulcata:
View attachment 351897
Here's the enclosure:
View attachment 351896
Here are some videos of him when having a flu:

Tortoise_ YouTube - Google Drive

drive.google.com

The Rept-Med description:
View attachment 351900

His fav pellets description:
View attachment 351899

All of the following is intended to help. You can't fix the problems if no one explains the problems.

You've made the same mistake that vets make. You've attempted to treat the symptoms without first discovering and correcting the CAUSE of the problem. They don't just get sick for no reason. Respiratory infections in tortoises are not the influenza. It is due to a weakening of the immune system, most often caused by low night temperatures and evaporation in open topped enclosures.

Your next mistake was using medicines that are likely not going to work, and who knows what the correct dosage is? Youtube and the internet is not a good source for veterinary help. Medicines like this can be toxic, the wrong dosage can be harmful or deadly, and antibiotics like this often do more harm than good. It is likely that you've killed of the intestinal flora and fauna, which would cause a terrible upset tummy and likely kill any appetite.

This brings us to your first mistake and the CAUSE of the problem. You are housing this tortoise incorrectly. You cannot maintain the correct temps and humidity in an open topped container. Low sided sweater boxes like yours are the absolute worst way to house them. At least with an aquarium or taller box you can try to cover some of the top. This torts needs a large closed chamber. That AC kicking on at night and the tort completely exposed like this is most likely what brought on the sickness.

Coco chips are not a safe substrate. I use the chips for some snakes and lizards, but not for tortoises. They are likely to incidentally ingest some and it can cause a blockage. They are also difficult for babies to walk on due to the loose nature of them. This loose nature is great for skinks and snakes to burrow into and tunnel through as it does not damage their snouts as they push through it, but its no good for tortoises that are trying to walk on top of it.

You have no basking light. They need a basking light.

The CHE is good for maintaining ambient temps if left on a thermostat, but in a shallow open topped enclosure, all it does is dry things out. The heat can't be contained in an enclosure like that. As you've seen, misting 10 times a day doesn't keep things moist and doesn't help humidity. Instead all that misting in that type of enclosure is simply causing evaporative cooling, which is a likely contributor to your problem.

The spiral type cfl bulb is not an effective UV source and in some cases they burn tortoise eyes. The eye pain can cause the nose bubbles you saw. Ever been poked in the eye, or get soap in your eye and have your nose get all snotty? I have. Cfl bulbs should not be used over reptiles. It isn't safe or effective.

You also have the problem that no one in your country starts babies correctly. They are started way too dry and dehydrated. Most will not survive, but it takes weeks or months for them to die from the mistreatment they received after hatching while still with the breeder or seller. These are NOT desert animals and dry conditions kill the babies.

You need a MUCH larger enclosure and it needs to be a closed chamber of some sort. You need a better water bowl, different substrate, a proper humid hide, and a better UV tube. If you fix these problems, the tortoise should recover as long as the medicine or the breeder didn't damage the kidneys.

You should NOT force feed. The tortoise is not eating for a good reason.

Those pellets do not look suitable for a tortoise. Too high in protein.

Here is the lighting breakdown:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Here is the correct care info:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome. This is a lot to take in.

 

[ahmadyazidozi]

No, don't force feed. As long as he's eating a bit, just wait and see. Giving a tortoise antibiotics makes them feel a bit ill and puts them off their feed for a while. Soak him in warm water daily for about a half hour. He should perk up soon. But read our care sheet and make any changes necessary to bring his habitat up to standard for his species.

Thank you so Much Yvonne,
Will try to do my best on it.

 

[ahmadyazidozi]

All of the following is intended to help. You can't fix the problems if no one explains the problems.

You've made the same mistake that vets make. You've attempted to treat the symptoms without first discovering and correcting the CAUSE of the problem. They don't just get sick for no reason. Respiratory infections in tortoises are not the influenza. It is due to a weakening of the immune system, most often caused by low night temperatures and evaporation in open topped enclosures.

Your next mistake was using medicines that are likely not going to work, and who knows what the correct dosage is? Youtube and the internet is not a good source for veterinary help. Medicines like this can be toxic, the wrong dosage can be harmful or deadly, and antibiotics like this often do more harm than good. It is likely that you've killed of the intestinal flora and fauna, which would cause a terrible upset tummy and likely kill any appetite.

This brings us to your first mistake and the CAUSE of the problem. You are housing this tortoise incorrectly. You cannot maintain the correct temps and humidity in an open topped container. Low sided sweater boxes like yours are the absolute worst way to house them. At least with an aquarium or taller box you can try to cover some of the top. This torts needs a large closed chamber. That AC kicking on at night and the tort completely exposed like this is most likely what brought on the sickness.

Coco chips are not a safe substrate. I use the chips for some snakes and lizards, but not for tortoises. They are likely to incidentally ingest some and it can cause a blockage. They are also difficult for babies to walk on due to the loose nature of them. This loose nature is great for skinks and snakes to burrow into and tunnel through as it does not damage their snouts as they push through it, but its no good for tortoises that are trying to walk on top of it.

You have no basking light. They need a basking light.

The CHE is good for maintaining ambient temps if left on a thermostat, but in a shallow open topped enclosure, all it does is dry things out. The heat can't be contained in an enclosure like that. As you've seen, misting 10 times a day doesn't keep things moist and doesn't help humidity. Instead all that misting in that type of enclosure is simply causing evaporative cooling, which is a likely contributor to your problem.

The spiral type cfl bulb is not an effective UV source and in some cases they burn tortoise eyes. The eye pain can cause the nose bubbles you saw. Ever been poked in the eye, or get soap in your eye and have your nose get all snotty? I have. Cfl bulbs should not be used over reptiles. It isn't safe or effective.

You also have the problem that no one in your country starts babies correctly. They are started way too dry and dehydrated. Most will not survive, but it takes weeks or months for them to die from the mistreatment they received after hatching while still with the breeder or seller. These are NOT desert animals and dry conditions kill the babies.

You need a MUCH larger enclosure and it needs to be a closed chamber of some sort. You need a better water bowl, different substrate, a proper humid hide, and a better UV tube. If you fix these problems, the tortoise should recover as long as the medicine or the breeder didn't damage the kidneys.

You should NOT force feed. The tortoise is not eating for a good reason.

Those pellets do not look suitable for a tortoise. Too high in protein.

Here is the lighting breakdown:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Here is the correct care info:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome. This is a lot to take in.

Thank you so much Tom, I am reading your "best way to raise a sulcata" and taking many notes from it, thank you so much.

If I may ask few questions.

I am quite confused on "Coco Coir", which do you mean by coco coir?
is it like described in this one?

or coco coir as in coco fiber?

does something like this works?


I'll hold on using the UVB for now as I regularly have him got some sunshine for 15-30 minutes (almost everyday, minus cloudy days).

Do you have recommendation on the height of the enclosure?? I have many larger boxes that I can use and tweak it into a closed chamber of some sort.

and regarding Pellets, actually I am a bit stuck too.
as of now I have 5 types of pellets:
1. JGS (his favourite one, the one that he only ate now)
Protein 18%; Fiber 20%; Fat 3.%; Vitamins: B1, B2,B3, B5, B6, B8,B9, A,C, E; Minerals, Calcium Potassium
2. Zoomed Natural Grassland (he totally hate this somehow, maybe the smell?? not even want to try even when I mixed a lot of JGS)

3. Mazuri (he doesnt like this one too)
Crude Protein not less than 20.0%; Crude fat not less than 4.0%; Crude Fiber not more than 14.0%; moisture not more than 12.0%;
4. Meizu (He sometimes eat this)
Crude Protein (Min) 18%; Crude Fat 17%; Moisture (Max) 11%; Crude Fiber (Max) 17%
5. T-Balance (He sometimes eat this)
Protein > 15.0%; Crude Fibres < 23.0%; Crude Oils and Fats < 2.0%; Crude Ash < 16.0%; Moisture < 10%
Vit A: 7000IU/Kg; Vit D3: 2150IU/Kg; Vit E: 215mg/Kg

He only wants to eat JGS (no 1 on the list), do you have any suggestions??

thank you so much for your time Tom.
You're really a great help

 

[ahmadyazidozi]

Thank you so much Tom, I am reading your "best way to raise a sulcata" and taking many notes from it, thank you so much.

If I may ask few questions.

I am quite confused on "Coco Coir", which do you mean by coco coir?
is it like described in this one?
View attachment 351922
or coco coir as in coco fiber?
View attachment 351924
does something like this works?
View attachment 351923

I'll hold on using the UVB for now as I regularly have him got some sunshine for 15-30 minutes (almost everyday, minus cloudy days).

Do you have recommendation on the height of the enclosure?? I have many larger boxes that I can use and tweak it into a closed chamber of some sort.

and regarding Pellets, actually I am a bit stuck too.
as of now I have 5 types of pellets:
1. JGS (his favourite one, the one that he only ate now)
Protein 18%; Fiber 20%; Fat 3.%; Vitamins: B1, B2,B3, B5, B6, B8,B9, A,C, E; Minerals, Calcium Potassium
2. Zoomed Natural Grassland (he totally hate this somehow, maybe the smell?? not even want to try even when I mixed a lot of JGS)
View attachment 351925
3. Mazuri (he doesnt like this one too)
Crude Protein not less than 20.0%; Crude fat not less than 4.0%; Crude Fiber not more than 14.0%; moisture not more than 12.0%;
4. Meizu (He sometimes eat this)
Crude Protein (Min) 18%; Crude Fat 17%; Moisture (Max) 11%; Crude Fiber (Max) 17%
5. T-Balance (He sometimes eat this)
Protein > 15.0%; Crude Fibres < 23.0%; Crude Oils and Fats < 2.0%; Crude Ash < 16.0%; Moisture < 10%
Vit A: 7000IU/Kg; Vit D3: 2150IU/Kg; Vit E: 215mg/Kg

He only wants to eat JGS (no 1 on the list), do you have any suggestions??

thank you so much for your time Tom.
You're really a great help

a little bit info on the food: I use thetortotable as guide for the greens, timothy hay, fresh grass from the fields near my office, self-raise some wheatgrass and Optunia. There is always a bulk of greens ready for him (changed every morning and noon)

I am still trying to introduce Zoomed to him, still no avail, he still hates it.

 

[Tom]

Substrate: Fine grade orchid bark, also known as "Repti-bark" when sold by ZooMed, is the best way to go. Coco coir = coco peat, and those are okay, but messy. Use a thick layer and hand pack it firmly. No coco fiber, no coco chips, no coco fiber mats.

Enclosure height. This isn't critical, but you generally need 24-30 inches to have enough room inside for hanging the lights and some potted plants.

Pellets: We don't have Meizu, T-Balance, or JGS over here, so I have no experience with those. Seems like the protein content is too high at 18%, but that is probably part of why the tortoise likes it. You have the wrong type of Mazuri. You want the original (5M21) or the LS. No tortoise likes the ZooMed pellet initially unless they were introduced to it as a baby, and I know of no breeder other than me that does that. It takes a lengthy introduction period where you introduce tiny amounts of any new food with old favorites. Its worth the time, as the Grassland food is a good way to introduce fiber and variety to grocery store greens. Just use a tiny broken piece of one pellet that has been soaked and thoroughly mixed in with pile of greens. It should almost be like you dropped a leaf and there are some tiny specks of the soaked pellet stuck to it like dirt. Gradually add more over time. It usually takes weeks or months, but they get used to it and grow to like it.

Hay is for adult tortoises, not babies, and when you start introducing hay you will not want Timothy as it it too stemmy and coarse. I begin introducing grass hay when they are about 12 inches, and I use orchard grass hay and Bermuda hay.

The local weeds and fresh grass is excellent tortoise food! Opuntia is a great addition too.