Orange pimples on baby sulcatas

[Kingsley7]

Hey again everyone, I just recently purchased 4 two month old 66.6% het for albino sulcatas from a seller on fauna classifieds and I’ve run into yet another issue that the internet can’t give me a clear answer towards. I received them about 2 weeks ago and put them in a closed chamber with my 9 ish month old sulcata (who is discussed in my previous posts). Humidity is 80-90% and temperature is 85-95. I feed them varied greens and mazuri twice a week, and I dust their greens twice a week. I clean out the closed chamber once a day or as soon as it gets soiled. They get soaked for 10-20 minutes almost every morning and I make sure they are clean afterwards. The first week was great, they ate and acted the way healthy baby sulcatas do, and they were all perfectly healthy. Then I noticed one wasn’t eating or moving much, upon further inspection he was very deflated looking and had orange blisters/ pimples covering his skin (not shell). He could barely move, so I did the most humane thing and put him down. It was very, very sudden and completely took me by surprise. So I inspected the other three, one is clean and perfectly healthy, and the last 2 have the orange pimples on their neck/ skin. I separated them from my 9 month old and the single healthy one. One of the two is very healthy and the orange spots seem to be going down, it is still eating, gaining weight, and active, however the other ones nostrils are completely closed and I can hear it struggling to breathe. I reached out to several breeders asking what it could be and we can’t come to a conclusion besides me making the mistake of buying from a mass breeder, where it’s impossible to control illness or disease... the breeder I got them from informed me that none of his had anything like what I described to him and none of his had been sick or died. If anyone could help me out with any information on what this could be it would be much appreciated, thank you! I’ll attach pictures of the baby that died and the one who’s nostrils are closed to hopefully help reach a conclusion

 

[Maro2Bear]

Greetings. Sure hope you figure out what is causing those pimples/absesses. Wonder if it’s worth taking one to a vet for a culture?

I sure hope you don’t have them all housed together? No quarantine...all kinds of things can happen. Let alone bullying, fighting, and of course germ/bacteria transmission.

Good luck

 

[jsheffield]

No idea, but I can't imagine it would hurt to "paint" the pimples with betadine using a q-tip for the next few days, and maybe changing the bedding to help get rid of any lingering pathogens.

Fingers crossed for your torts.

Jamie

 

[Kingsley7]

Greetings. Sure hope you figure out what is causing those pimples/absesses. Wonder if it’s worth taking one to a vet for a culture?

I sure hope you don’t have them all housed together? No quarantine...all kinds of things can happen. Let alone bullying, fighting, and of course germ/bacteria transmission.

Good luck

I may do that very shortly, I have the two healthy ones housed together and the two with the abscesses in quarantine, they’ve been living very peacefully together. Thank you!

 

[Kingsley7]

No idea, but I can't imagine it would hurt to "paint" the pimples with betadine using a q-tip for the next few days, and maybe changing the bedding to help get rid of any lingering pathogens.

Fingers crossed for your torts.

Jamie

Thanks Jamie, I’ve changed the bedding daily and I’m ordering some terramycin today to put on the pimples, if that works to no avail I’ll get some betadine to try as well, thanks for the help!

 

[Maro2Bear]

I may do that very shortly, I have the two healthy ones housed together and the two with the abscesses in quarantine, they’ve been living very peacefully together. Thank you!

Ok, good luck. Hope you get it sorted out.

 

[Tom]

Disclaimer: This is not a diagnosis. I have no way of knowing what is happening there. I'm just sharing what happened to me in the hope that there might be some insight or a clue in my story.

I had something similar with some hatchlings that were ivory and het for ivory from a known and respected breeder. Those lesions look similar to the ones I saw on mine. Culturing revealed they were some weird, not commonly seen bacteria. Later, necropsy revealed that the lesion were a secondary infection and the primary issue was crytposporidia. In dogs, you give them some flagyl and the crypto disappears. The reptile type of crypto has no cure or treatment. It is also highly contagious, and never goes away. Tortoises that are infected shed it constantly. It can also be very difficult to diagnose in a living animal. Sometimes a positive animal will not show it in stool samples or even gastric lavage.

I euthanized dozens of babies that year, threw away thousands of dollars of equipment and caging, sterilized the whole reptile room with multiple applications of ammonia, hot soapy water and bleach (at different times), and left the room vacant (no host...) for more than a year.

 

[Kingsley7]

Disclaimer: This is not a diagnosis. I have no way of knowing what is happening there. I'm just sharing what happened to me in the hope that there might be some insight or a clue in my story.

I had something similar with some hatchlings that were ivory and het for ivory from a known and respected breeder. Those lesions look similar to the ones I saw on mine. Culturing revealed they were some weird, not commonly seen bacteria. Later, necropsy revealed that the lesion were a secondary infection and the primary issue was crytposporidia. In dogs, you give them some flagyl and the crypto disappears. The reptile type of crypto has no cure or treatment. It is also highly contagious, and never goes away. Tortoises that are infected shed it constantly. It can also be very difficult to diagnose in a living animal. Sometimes a positive animal will not show it in stool samples or even gastric lavage.

I euthanized dozens of babies that year, threw away thousands of dollars of equipment and caging, sterilized the whole reptile room with multiple applications of ammonia, hot soapy water and bleach (at different times), and left the room vacant (no host...) for more than a year.

That’s tragic I’m very sorry to hear that, I hope that’s not the case with my torts.... I’ve been keeping the two with the lesions separate from everyone else since I noticed the spots and I haven’t seen any signs of infection in my older sulcata since removing them which thus far I’m very thankful for.... can older more established torts that never came in contact still contract it if it is cryptosporidia and I’ve been diligent about not cross contaminating anything? And would it be worth it to take the baby I euthanized for a necropsy or will that be a huge money suck? Thanks for the insight.

 

[Tom]

That’s tragic I’m very sorry to hear that, I hope that’s not the case with my torts.... I’ve been keeping the two with the lesions separate from everyone else since I noticed the spots and I haven’t seen any signs of infection in my older sulcata since removing them which thus far I’m very thankful for.... can older more established torts that never came in contact still contract it if it is cryptosporidia and I’ve been diligent about not cross contaminating anything? And would it be worth it to take the baby I euthanized for a necropsy or will that be a huge money suck? Thanks for the insight.

Your reptile vet will have to send the carcass off the the vet school that does the full body necropsies. I think it is U of Kansas, but I could be mistaken. It costs around $500-1000, but the value of my collection far exceeds that amount and I wanted to know what the heck was going on.

I talked to the vet at the Baltimore Zoo that is studying this pathogen and he told me it can be spread by substrate flies that land on the feces of an infected animal and then fly over to an uninfected enclosure and land on the food or feces. If they were in the same room, transmission was likely. If they were in the same enclosure, transmission is almost certain.

Again, we don't know for sure that you have crypto. The symptoms, the source, and the outward signs all seem the same, but without certain diagnosis, through necropsy, we are just guessing. I would send in one of the infected ones for necropsy. When you get a positive diagnosis, then you can decide what you want to do. I decided that stopping the spread of the horrible disease that had infected mine was worth the substantial sacrifice. If you only have a few sulcatas, it might be worth it to just euthanize and incinerate the group, throw everything away, wait 9-12 months, and then start over with "clean" animals from a different source. This might sound harsh, but spreading disease to every tortoise in the country is a far more harsh outcome.

This thread from Will was written for exactly this purpose and exactly because fo this sort of situation. Anyone reading this thread should also read Will's thread. Tortoises carry diseases. For whatever reason it is much more prevalent, much more damaging, and much more common than in some other reptile pets. These diseases are easy to contain, prevent, or stop if some simple quarantine procedures are followed.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/huge-quarantine-scare.177193/

 

[Kingsley7]

Your reptile vet will have to send the carcass off the the vet school that does the full body necropsies. I think it is U of Kansas, but I could be mistaken. It costs around $500-1000, but the value of my collection far exceeds that amount and I wanted to know what the heck was going on.

I talked to the vet at the Baltimore Zoo that is studying this pathogen and he told me it can be spread by substrate flies that land on the feces of an infected animal and then fly over to an uninfected enclosure and land on the food or feces. If they were in the same room, transmission was likely. If they were in the same enclosure, transmission is almost certain.

Again, we don't know for sure that you have crypto. The symptoms, the source, and the outward signs all seem the same, but without certain diagnosis, through necropsy, we are just guessing. I would send in one of the infected ones for necropsy. When you get a positive diagnosis, then you can decide what you want to do. I decided that stopping the spread of the horrible disease that had infected mine was worth the substantial sacrifice. If you only have a few sulcatas, it might be worth it to just euthanize and incinerate the group, throw everything away, wait 9-12 months, and then start over with "clean" animals from a different source. This might sound harsh, but spreading disease to every tortoise in the country is a far more harsh outcome.

This thread from Will was written for exactly this purpose and exactly because fo this sort of situation. Anyone reading this thread should also read Will's thread. Tortoises carry diseases. For whatever reason it is much more prevalent, much more damaging, and much more common than in some other reptile pets. These diseases are easy to contain, prevent, or stop if some simple quarantine procedures are followed.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/huge-quarantine-scare.177193/

I have 4 young sulcatas who have shared an enclosure, a year and a half old pardalis pardalis in an enclosure next to it that I make sure never gets cross contaminated, and a 6X2, 1:2 Russian enclosure, are you suggesting if it is crypto I should euthanize my entire room? Or just the sulcatas that have been in direct contact?

 

[Ben02]

Your reptile vet will have to send the carcass off the the vet school that does the full body necropsies. I think it is U of Kansas, but I could be mistaken. It costs around $500-1000, but the value of my collection far exceeds that amount and I wanted to know what the heck was going on.

I talked to the vet at the Baltimore Zoo that is studying this pathogen and he told me it can be spread by substrate flies that land on the feces of an infected animal and then fly over to an uninfected enclosure and land on the food or feces. If they were in the same room, transmission was likely. If they were in the same enclosure, transmission is almost certain.

Again, we don't know for sure that you have crypto. The symptoms, the source, and the outward signs all seem the same, but without certain diagnosis, through necropsy, we are just guessing. I would send in one of the infected ones for necropsy. When you get a positive diagnosis, then you can decide what you want to do. I decided that stopping the spread of the horrible disease that had infected mine was worth the substantial sacrifice. If you only have a few sulcatas, it might be worth it to just euthanize and incinerate the group, throw everything away, wait 9-12 months, and then start over with "clean" animals from a different source. This might sound harsh, but spreading disease to every tortoise in the country is a far more harsh outcome.

This thread from Will was written for exactly this purpose and exactly because fo this sort of situation. Anyone reading this thread should also read Will's thread. Tortoises carry diseases. For whatever reason it is much more prevalent, much more damaging, and much more common than in some other reptile pets. These diseases are easy to contain, prevent, or stop if some simple quarantine procedures are followed.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/huge-quarantine-scare.177193/

Natures nasty man.

 

[Tom]

I have 4 young sulcatas who have shared an enclosure, a year and a half old pardalis pardalis in an enclosure next to it that I make sure never gets cross contaminated, and a 6X2, 1:2 Russian enclosure, are you suggesting if it is crypto I should euthanize my entire room? Or just the sulcatas that have been in direct contact?

If you get confirmation on what you've got there, and it is something terrible like crypto, I would for sure euthanize and incinerate any tortoise that has had direct contact with the infected animals, and then quarantine all your other animals for at least one year. No new tortoises in, and the ones you have don't go anywhere. If the Russians are breeding, you keep those babies for at least a year.

Depending on the organism you are dealing with, you might be able to test your other ones for infection and possibly clear them. If its crypto, false negatives are the norm, so I wouldn't trust the tests. Other pathogens are more easily detected in some cases.

 

[Tom]

Natures nasty man.

I think this particular nastiness is the direct fault of our own species. Nature never intended for humans to be able to do what we can do. We've come a long way since living out in the bushes and only traveling as far as our feet could carry us.

 

[Kingsley7]

I think this particular nastiness is the direct fault of our own species. Nature never intended for humans to be able to do what we can do. We've come a long way since living out in the bushes and only traveling as far as our feet could carry us.

Agreed.

 

[Kingsley7]

I reached out to the breeder I got them from and told him about it and he told me not a single one of the baby’s (siblings to the ones I bought) or adults were sick, have died, or showed any kinds of similar symptoms, would that help in deciding whether or not it could be crypto?

 

[Tom]

I reached out to the breeder I got them from and told him about it and he told me not a single one of the baby’s (siblings to the ones I bought) or adults were sick, have died, or showed any kinds of similar symptoms, would that help in deciding whether or not it could be crypto?

The breeder that sold me the infected ones told me the same thing. In a practical sense, this is impossible to prove. With enough necropsies, DNA testing of pathogens, and some luck, it is possible to prove where the organism came from. I had nothing but captive hatched babies from long term captive stock in that room when this happened. When I received my group of ivories, one of them already had one of these lesions. At the time I was ignorant and didn't think much of it. I wasn't too worried about the little "pimple" on the neck skin and the tortoise seemed fine otherwise.

 

[mark1]

respectfully , you do realize crypto is an intestinal disease ? there is no effective medication for it in dogs either , they treat the symptoms and hope the pups immune system takes care of it , healthy adult dogs don't get it , or get over it quickly regardless of trying to treat it or not , I believe they used stuff like tylosin , and azithromycin …. aside from husbandry issues I think a bunch of folks would be surprised how many of their problems would be easily solved early on by a round of systemic antibiotics based on a good guess , without all the stressful costly additives ……….. i'd take them little tortoises to a herp vet , being that young and kept in a warm moist environment , a bacterial or fungal skin infection I doubt would be a longshot ……… my guess is the vet would take a look at whatever they could get from one of them blisters under a microscope , probably put them on a systemic antibiotic , possibly also a topical , and tell you to dry up their environment at least temporarily ..... maybe an anti-fungal if it looks like a good guess to them …... unless the animal is critical , a good vet should eliminate the obvious and most probable first , if their is no improvement or worsening , you've eliminated a lot of stuff and can start looking for other stuff ..... if the most obvious guess works , your done …... ......…which is why waiting till they're on their last leg is never a good idea , gives you less guesses ......identifying and jumping on unwell asap imo is a big deal ……… that'd be my thought on your little tortoises...…….

 

[Blackdog1714]

I read where there is only one drug on the market and that is just for humans. Scary reading

 

[Kingsley7]

respectfully , you do realize crypto is an intestinal disease ? there is no effective medication for it in dogs either , they treat the symptoms and hope the pups immune system takes care of it , healthy adult dogs don't get it , or get over it quickly regardless of trying to treat it or not , I believe they used stuff like tylosin , and azithromycin …. aside from husbandry issues I think a bunch of folks would be surprised how many of their problems would be easily solved early on by a round of systemic antibiotics based on a good guess , without all the stressful costly additives ……….. i'd take them little tortoises to a herp vet , being that young and kept in a warm moist environment , a bacterial or fungal skin infection I doubt would be a longshot ……… my guess is the vet would take a look at whatever they could get from one of them blisters under a microscope , probably put them on a systemic antibiotic , possibly also a topical , and tell you to dry up their environment at least temporarily ..... maybe an anti-fungal if it looks like a good guess to them …... unless the animal is critical , a good vet should eliminate the obvious and most probable first , if their is no improvement or worsening , you've eliminated a lot of stuff and can start looking for other stuff ..... if the most obvious guess works , your done …... ......…which is why waiting till they're on their last leg is never a good idea , gives you less guesses ......identifying and jumping on unwell asap imo is a big deal ……… that'd be my thought on your little tortoises...…….

Thank you for that, I made a vet appointment for Monday, getting a necropsy on the tortoise I euthanized and doing swabs and getting tests on the lesions of the living tortoise that’s in the poorest condition, hopefully it ends up as something more manageable than crypto. I will keep you all in the loop.

 

[Kingsley7]

The breeder that sold me the infected ones told me the same thing. In a practical sense, this is impossible to prove. With enough necropsies, DNA testing of pathogens, and some luck, it is possible to prove where the organism came from. I had nothing but captive hatched babies from long term captive stock in that room when this happened. When I received my group of ivories, one of them already had one of these lesions. At the time I was ignorant and didn't think much of it. I wasn't too worried about the little "pimple" on the neck skin and the tortoise seemed fine otherwise.

Man. It sucks the way this stuff can happen even when you’re doing the most to keep everything happy and healthy..... do you think these pimples are contagious to humans? And if they aren’t, is crypto?