Oxalic Acid: Not as bad as we think?

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Yvonne G

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Hi Baoh:

We can all benefit from your experience and I really appreciate you sharing with us, thank you very much. There's just no way we can even come close to having the scientific knowledge you have with the schooling we've had. And because of that, I've deleted a comment made by you that sounded quite offensive and rude.
 

RedfootsRule

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Baoh, then please, correct us where we're wrong, but try to be a little less offensive. We're all here to learn.

If hydration is irrelevant to the solubility of calcium oxalate, then why do all preventative treatments in humans seem to rely on it? The solution always seems to be hydration....The thing I see is, does it matter that calcium oxalate is insoluble? I think the hydration more helps the body to eliminate it, not break it down in the body.

Clearly you have a more advanced view of things then us, and your knowledge is appreciated. But perhaps try to make it a little more easy to understand? I myself can interpret in with a few readings, but others may not be able to.
 

Len B

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I am way out of my league on this topic, So I have no answers, but many questions. The first is, What is the differences of Druse, and Raphide Calcium Oxalate Crystals ? I have been feeding some of the so-called toxic plants from the family Araceae for many years with no ill effects to my forest tortoises, and just heard about Druse,which is found in some plants along with the Raphide Crystals.
 

Baoh

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emysemys said:
Hi Baoh:

We can all benefit from your experience and I really appreciate you sharing with us, thank you very much. There's just no way we can even come close to having the scientific knowledge you have with the schooling we've had. And because of that, I've deleted a comment made by you that sounded quite offensive and rude.

I see I cannot even express my disappointment and the expectation that people actually perform even a modicum of work to inform themselves is asking too much, then, by the standard of what is "offensive". Back to looking at photos, then, for me. I will feel bad for the tortoises, though.
 

ra94131

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Baoh said:
I see I cannot even express my disappointment and the expectation that people actually perform even a modicum of work to inform themselves is asking too much, then, by the standard of what is "offensive". Back to looking at photos, then, for me. I will feel bad for the tortoises, though.

I agree with your premise, but the chemistry you discussed in your previous post was far beyond a "modicum of work." I would consider the discussion in this post the attempt of "laymen" to understand the subject and someone with actual training could be helpful.

On the other hand, I didn't find your post (in its original form) to be particularly offensive.
 

RedfootsRule

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Baoh,
You have only been asked to present your opinions in a more mild and less aggressive manner. If you are unable to do that, then you will find the forums are not a place for you.
What exactly do you think here would be harmful to the tortoises that you feel bad for them? Their owners wanting to learn how to better care for them is somehow harmful? I think not; in fact, it is very beneficial.
If you have useful information, please share it, so that we may learn from it. Coming into a thread and informing all of us we are idiots due to your superior knowledge, yet then being unable to share with us your superior knowledge NOR why we are wrong, will only make you look like what you interpret us to be.
And here I was hoping to have a thread free of controversiality...
 

luckyduck517

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Sorry for not responding for so long: a busy week at work. Links to the some of the abstracts I've seen have already been posted above! Unfortunately, I can't post the full articles because they're available to me through a subscription. As far as the relationship between hydration and calcium oxalate/ stone formation, I think maybe I didn't express myself clearly, so I apologize for that.

In animals we discuss the importance of hydration related to stone formation because of the relative concentration/ density of the crystals (in this case calcium oxalate) in the urine, which we know does impact how likely stones are to form. It isn't that there are fewer calcium oxalate crystals forming in a well hydrated tortoise, it's that when the tortoise is very well hydrated, the urine is very dilute and there are fewer crystals accumulating in the bladder before the tortoise voids it. Does that make sense? Stones are more likely to form in concentrated urine because there are more crystals closer together, which makes it easier for them all to congregate and form stones. I hope that explains it better- I can see how people might think I was trying to say that fewer calcium oxalate crystals would form, which from a chemistry standpoint isn't the case. It's just that stones are less likely to form from the crystals that are there.
 

RedfootsRule

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luckyduck517 said:
Sorry for not responding for so long: a busy week at work. Links to the some of the abstracts I've seen have already been posted above! Unfortunately, I can't post the full articles because they're available to me through a subscription. As far as the relationship between hydration and calcium oxalate/ stone formation, I think maybe I didn't express myself clearly, so I apologize for that.

In animals we discuss the importance of hydration related to stone formation because of the relative concentration/ density of the crystals (in this case calcium oxalate) in the urine, which we know does impact how likely stones are to form. It isn't that there are fewer calcium oxalate crystals forming in a well hydrated tortoise, it's that when the tortoise is very well hydrated, the urine is very dilute and there are fewer crystals accumulating in the bladder before the tortoise voids it. Does that make sense? Stones are more likely to form in concentrated urine because there are more crystals closer together, which makes it easier for them all to congregate and form stones. I hope that explains it better- I can see how people might think I was trying to say that fewer calcium oxalate crystals would form, which from a chemistry standpoint isn't the case. It's just that stones are less likely to form from the crystals that are there.

Makes complete sense. So they are less likely to form bladder stones because they are essentially "further apart" and less likely to congregate to form stones....Very interesting. So not the calcium oxalates being soluble in water, nor it making easier for the body to eliminate....
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Baoh said:
I see I cannot even express my disappointment and the expectation that people actually perform even a modicum of work to inform themselves is asking too much, then, by the standard of what is "offensive". Back to looking at photos, then, for me. I will feel bad for the tortoises, though.

What do you get out of insulting people who don't have your knowledge base? Different people have different areas of expertise, or else try to learn. Are others now supposed to ridicule you when you don't know stuff they know? Sheesh.
 

paludarium

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While most people focus on the chemistry of the calcium oxalate, I would like to remind that accroding to the book "Medicine and Surgery of Tortoises and Turtles": No clinical cases of oxalate urolithiasis have been documented in reptiles. I did some researches trying to find out whether this astonishing statement is still valid to date. Here a few examples:

In the study "Oxalosis in wild desert tortoises, Gopherus agassizii" I found the following statement: Presence of oxalates did not differ significantly between healthy and unhealthy tortoises, between age classes, or between desert region, and their presence was considered an incidental finding. Small numbers of oxalate crystals seen within the kidney of two additional tortoises also were considered an incidental finding. Most of the reported bladder stones of the Gopherus were urates and none was oxalate.

Also in the study "Renal oxalosis in free-ranging green turtles Chelonia mydas" I noticed that affected sea turtles included 14 adults and 4 immature animals, which comprised 26% (18/69) of green turtle necropsy cases available for review. Calcium oxalate deposition ranged from small to moderate amounts and was associated with granuloma formation and destruction of renal tubules. All affected turtles died from traumatic events or health problems unrelated to renal oxalosis. I would not apply human pathophysiology of the oxalosis on the tortoise. Tortoises and human beings are different critters.

And in the study "Quantitative analysis of 4468 uroliths retrieved from farm animals, exotic species, and wildlife submitted to the Minnesota Urolith Center: 1981 to 2007" I did not see any case report of oxalate uroliths on the tortoise, but the urates. It should be the urate urolithiasis that we have to worry about.

So far I do not see any compelling evidence to refute the statement that no clinical cases of oxalate urolithiasis have been documented in tortoises. So, why are we still anxious about oxalosis of the tortoises? I would devote myself to the etiology of the uric acid stone but not calcium oxalate.

Regards,
Erich
 

marcy4hope

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luckyduck517 said:
In animals we discuss the importance of hydration related to stone formation because of the relative concentration/ density of the crystals (in this case calcium oxalate) in the urine, which we know does impact how likely stones are to form. It isn't that there are fewer calcium oxalate crystals forming in a well hydrated tortoise, it's that when the tortoise is very well hydrated, the urine is very dilute and there are fewer crystals accumulating in the bladder before the tortoise voids it. Does that make sense? Stones are more likely to form in concentrated urine because there are more crystals closer together, which makes it easier for them all to congregate and form stones. I hope that explains it better- I can see how people might think I was trying to say that fewer calcium oxalate crystals would form, which from a chemistry standpoint isn't the case. It's just that stones are less likely to form from the crystals that are there.

thank you, thank you, thank you. now THAT explanation, i (an extreme novice) can understand!
 

RedfootsRule

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paludarium said:
While most people focus on the chemistry of the calcium oxalate, I would like to remind that accroding to the book "Medicine and Surgery of Tortoises and Turtles": No clinical cases of oxalate urolithiasis have been documented in reptiles. I did some researches trying to find out whether this astonishing statement is still valid to date. Here a few examples:

In the study "Oxalosis in wild desert tortoises, Gopherus agassizii" I found the following statement: Presence of oxalates did not differ significantly between healthy and unhealthy tortoises, between age classes, or between desert region, and their presence was considered an incidental finding. Small numbers of oxalate crystals seen within the kidney of two additional tortoises also were considered an incidental finding. Most of the reported bladder stones of the Gopherus were urates and none was oxalate.

Also in the study "Renal oxalosis in free-ranging green turtles Chelonia mydas" I noticed that affected sea turtles included 14 adults and 4 immature animals, which comprised 26% (18/69) of green turtle necropsy cases available for review. Calcium oxalate deposition ranged from small to moderate amounts and was associated with granuloma formation and destruction of renal tubules. All affected turtles died from traumatic events or health problems unrelated to renal oxalosis. I would not apply human pathophysiology of the oxalosis on the tortoise. Tortoises and human beings are different critters.

And in the study "Quantitative analysis of 4468 uroliths retrieved from farm animals, exotic species, and wildlife submitted to the Minnesota Urolith Center: 1981 to 2007" I did not see any case report of oxalate uroliths on the tortoise, but the urates. It should be the urate urolithiasis that we have to worry about.

So far I do not see any compelling evidence to refute the statement that no clinical cases of oxalate urolithiasis have been documented in tortoises. So, why are we still anxious about oxalosis of the tortoises? I would devote myself to the etiology of the uric acid stone but not calcium oxalate.

Regards,
Erich

Very, very interesting. Thank you Erich.

So that proves even further, oxalates are really nothing to worry about. So, what we should be worrying about is uric acid....Which is another interesting discussion. I know EJ in his thread "Mazuri part 1 and 2" mentions that he knew what killed some of his star tortoises was urates. He linked the urates to the fact that the tortoises were on a completely green diet, and green diets are high in salts. But thats all a discussion for another time.
It is interesting; how then, did oxalates originally become such a worry? It seems there is an obvious lack of evidence of it presenting any significant risk. Perhaps because of what is known about calcium oxalates in humans? But then, even in humans, it has been found that calcium oxalates do not have much of an effect on stones, as people believed they do.
Would be interesting to know where this all started.....
I love this thread :). Learning what I wanted to now.
 
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