Paraguayan and Brazilian Cherryheads, one and the same?

[Bryan]

I really like cherryheads and I could buy Brazilian and/or Paraguayan cherryheads. I'm looking at raising and eventually breeding Cherryheads and I'm wanting to make sure that I'm not mixing different geographic strains. I recall reading somewhere that someone said that the Paraguayan cherryheads were actually Brazilians being snuck through Paraguay while exports from Brazil weren't allowed. Is this the commonly accepted explanation for Paraguayan cherryheads or are they actually a separate population of cherryheads? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Bryan

 

[egyptiandan]

Hi Bryan,
Paraguay has the large Chacoan form of Redfoots. I'm thinking if someone is selling Paraguayan Cherryheads, that they were just imported from there like you thought. Brazil was closed for exporting for quite a while, until they started farming the Redfoots.
I hadn't noticed anyone advertising Paraguayan Cherryheads.

Danny

 

[Bryan]

Hi Bryan,
Paraguay has the large Chacoan form of Redfoots. I'm thinking if someone is selling Paraguayan Cherryheads, that they were just imported from there like you thought. Brazil was closed for exporting for quite a while, until they started farming the Redfoots.
I hadn't noticed anyone advertising Paraguayan Cherryheads.

Danny

I've come across a few different people selling Paraguayan cherryheads, and someone had a beauty that I just missed out on, so I was just checking. In the book South American Tortoises the only mention that I saw of Paraguayan's were the fact that they were a HUGE variety from the Gran Chaco and a similar if not identical form as Bolivian Gran Chaco specimens. I just figured that since I'm new to the game and that one book never tells the entire story that I'd make sure that I got it straight before buying any of these guys.

 

[Madkins007]

In general, feel safe using the book SA Tortoises as a 'bible'- I endorse it heartily! I have found no real evidence that what is generally called a 'cherryhead' comes from anyplace other than east-central Brazil.

Remember, however, that 'cherryhead' is often used as a marketing term, not a standardized term with an absolute definition. If it is a 'typical' cherry-head, it will usually have the very slight snout and almost starburst pattern the SA Tortoises book shows.

 

[Bryan]

In general, feel safe using the book SA Tortoises as a 'bible'- I endorse it heartily! I have found no real evidence that what is generally called a 'cherryhead' comes from anyplace other than east-central Brazil.

Remember, however, that 'cherryhead' is often used as a marketing term, not a standardized term with an absolute definition. If it is a 'typical' cherry-head, it will usually have the very slight snout and almost starburst pattern the SA Tortoises book shows.

I haven't heard of marbling in any RF's other than Cherryheads, is it a safe assumption that if they have marbling on the carapace that they are a true cherryhead?

 

[cdmay]

Bryan,
I agree with the above posts.
Something else to remember is that the cherryheads imported in the early 80s were sold as "Paraguayan" or even Argentina animals. So many of the keepers who have breeders from back then still refer to them as Paraguayan since they might not have read where the Pet Farm (the major importer of the cherryheads at the time) employees had later admitted to the intentional mix up.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,
I agree with the above posts.
Something else to remember is that the cherryheads imported in the early 80s were sold as "Paraguayan" or even Argentina animals. So many of the keepers who have breeders from back then still refer to them as Paraguayan since they might not have read where the Pet Farm (the major importer of the cherryheads at the time) employees had later admitted to the intentional mix up.

Thanks, any idea if the 80's animals were wild caught or raised at that farm then while export was illegal?

 

[cdmay]

Thanks, any idea if the 80's animals were wild caught or raised at that farm then while export was illegal?

I don't remember but many appeared to have old injuries consistant with life in the wild. Also, many had worn shells...I think most were W/C. One male that I still have was clearly W/C and he has old scars and bite marks on his plastron and carapace.

 

[Bryan]

Thanks, any idea if the 80's animals were wild caught or raised at that farm then while export was illegal?

I don't remember but many appeared to have old injuries consistant with life in the wild. Also, many had worn shells...I think most were W/C. One male that I still have was clearly W/C and he has old scars and bite marks on his plastron and carapace.

Thanks for that, in essence the "Paraguayan Cherry Heads" could be useful in the pet trade as they are a different gene source than the Brazilian farmed cherry heads. My next question would be, are the "Paraguayans" as colorful as the Brazilian farm raised specimens? Or have the farm raised specimens been selectively line bred for color long enough that their colors and markings are generally superior? Do you happen to have a photo that you could share of your cherry head? Thanks again, Bryan

 

[Madkins007]

Mottling: From my research, it seems more common in Eastern Brazil (Bahai) than in other populations, although I have seen photos of mottled Red-foots that do not show the 'cherry-head' characteristics.

As to whether the genes would be useful or the colors hold up would depend totally on what they REALLY are. If they are Gran Chaco morphs from Paraguay, red coloration or not, then they would not help the Eastern Brazilian gene pool, and in general, the Gran Chacos are not as colorful as the Eastern Brazilians.

It is hard enough to track Red-foot origins with all of the laws, sneaking around, farming morphs in non-native counties, etc. To add useless marketing labels to them as well, like 'Paraguay Cherry-head' makes me wonder about the honesty and/or knowledge of the dealer.

 

[Bryan]

Mottling: From my research, it seems more common in Eastern Brazil (Bahai) than in other populations, although I have seen photos of mottled Red-foots that do not show the 'cherry-head' characteristics.

As to whether the genes would be useful or the colors hold up would depend totally on what they REALLY are. If they are Gran Chaco morphs from Paraguay, red coloration or not, then they would not help the Eastern Brazilian gene pool, and in general, the Gran Chacos are not as colorful as the Eastern Brazilians.

It is hard enough to track Red-foot origins with all of the laws, sneaking around, farming morphs in non-native counties, etc. To add useless marketing labels to them as well, like 'Paraguay Cherry-head' makes me wonder about the honesty and/or knowledge of the dealer.

If they were sold to a specific dealer under that name IMO it is better that they in turn sell it under that name than just make assumptions that they are something else when in theory there is no way of being 100% sure that they are the same. The fact that they aren't saying that their cherry heads are 16+ inches also does well to show that they aren't from the Gran Chaco I wouldn't question their honesty or their knowledge as if they are selling something under a wrong name it would hurt their credibility (although this can go both ways as they could possibly be selling it under a wrong name). It is probably wiser on their part to sell it under this name and let people do research on it and draw their own conclusions. IMO it is still a gray area as these animals may not all be from Bahia state as it is said that not much is known of other Brazilian populations. I would love to see some photos of other red foots with marbling on their carapace's. Is it possible that they were captive bred northern red foots crossed with cherry head red foots? I am new to the game so I'm just taking stabs in the dark here lol!

 

[cdmay]

Thanks, any idea if the 80's animals were wild caught or raised at that farm then while export was illegal?
Thanks for that, in essence the "Paraguayan Cherry Heads" could be useful in the pet trade as they are a different gene source than the Brazilian farmed cherry heads. My next question would be, are the "Paraguayans" as colorful as the Brazilian farm raised specimens? Or have the farm raised specimens been selectively line bred for color long enough that their colors and markings are generally superior? Do you happen to have a photo that you could share of your cherry head? Thanks again, Bryan

Bryan....NO---Paraguayan Cherry Head is not a useful name in the market. The animals do not come from there and calling them that only confuses the issue. It would be like someone in Europe calling his western box turtle a "Miami Box Turtle" because it was shipped from Miami.
There are keepers today who might call their cherryheads Paraguayan simply because they have heard from somebody that Paraguay is where they come from. But frankly, NONE of us can know exactly where in S.A. imported animals originated unless we know the person who collected them in the wild.
I once knew a guy who said he had a pair of cherryheads that were Bolivian--they guy swore they were. To me they looked exactly like his others and so I asked him why he was so certain they actually were collected in Bolivia. His response? "The person I got them from thought they were Bolivian because they have red on the bottom of their feet".
In actual fact the person had no idea whatsoever where they came from. And BTW, color or lack of color on the bottom of the feet doesn't mean anything except that one has prettier feet than the other.
If you see a large group of imported cherryheads whether 'farmed' or wild caught the first thing you will notice is how variable they can be. Some will have extensive marbling and others IN THE SAME GROUP will have none. Some will have very red heads while others IN THE SAME GROUP have orange or even mostly black heads.
The so called farmed cherryheads I have seen imported recently do not appear to be much, if any different from the ones that Pet Farm got in 1983-4. But consider that some dealers have access to the animals when they first arrive. These dealers are going to 'cherry pick' (no pun intended) for the tortoises that have the most marbled shells and red heads right? So when they advertise their stock many people get the impression that all cherryheads are supposed to look like that dealers. They don't realize that his stock might represent the top 50 animals out of an imported group of 400.
This is my male named Moe. I have had him for over 12 years and the people I got him from had kept him for many years before that. He is an absolutely typical cherryhead--neither really ugly nor really colorful.
He has intense red color on his leg scales but his head is sort of orange/red. Not as showy as others males I have had but he is a great animal that is probably my favorite of all the tortoises I have ever kept. He has sired nearly 400 hatchlings.

 

[Bryan]

Thanks, any idea if the 80's animals were wild caught or raised at that farm then while export was illegal?
Thanks for that, in essence the "Paraguayan Cherry Heads" could be useful in the pet trade as they are a different gene source than the Brazilian farmed cherry heads. My next question would be, are the "Paraguayans" as colorful as the Brazilian farm raised specimens? Or have the farm raised specimens been selectively line bred for color long enough that their colors and markings are generally superior? Do you happen to have a photo that you could share of your cherry head? Thanks again, Bryan

Bryan....NO---Paraguayan Cherry Head is not a useful name in the market. The animals do not come from there and calling them that only confuses the issue. It would be like someone in Europe calling his western box turtle a "Miami Box Turtle" because it was shipped from Miami.
There are keepers today who might call their cherryheads Paraguayan simply because they have heard from somebody that Paraguay is where they come from. But frankly, NONE of us can know exactly where in S.A. imported animals originated unless we know the person who collected them in the wild.
I once knew a guy who said he had a pair of cherryheads that were Bolivian--they guy swore they were. To me they looked exactly like his others and so I asked him why he was so certain they actually were collected in Bolivia. His response? "The person I got them from thought they were Bolivian because they have red on the bottom of their feet".
In actual fact the person had no idea whatsoever where they came from. And BTW, color or lack of color on the bottom of the feet doesn't mean anything except that one has prettier feet than the other.
If you see a large group of imported cherryheads whether 'farmed' or wild caught the first thing you will notice is how variable they can be. Some will have extensive marbling and others IN THE SAME GROUP will have none. Some will have very red heads while others IN THE SAME GROUP have orange or even mostly black heads.
The so called farmed cherryheads I have seen imported recently do not appear to be much, if any different from the ones that Pet Farm got in 1983-4. But consider that some dealers have access to the animals when they first arrive. These dealers are going to 'cherry pick' (no pun intended) for the tortoises that have the most marbled shells and red heads right? So when they advertise their stock many people get the impression that all cherryheads are supposed to look like that dealers. They don't realize that his stock might represent the top 50 animals out of an imported group of 400.
This is my male named Moe. I have had him for over 12 years and the people I got him from had kept him for many years before that. He is an absolutely typical cherryhead--neither really ugly nor really colorful.
He has intense red color on his leg scales but his head is sort of orange/red. Not as showy as others males I have had but he is a great animal that is probably my favorite of all the tortoises I have ever kept. He has sired nearly 400 hatchlings.

If you were in their shoes what would you call them? Cherryheads? 3rd/4th generation CB Cherryheads? I know where you are coming from though and that's why I came here to gain as much knowledge as I could. I actually don't mind the looks of your tort at all. He is very nice IMHO, and while he doesn't have that incredibly bright red head like some of the specimens that you see for sale, he has very nice markings and to be honest one of the beauties about Red Foots IMO is their color variation.

He's sired 400 hatchlings? I can see why he's your favorite! Talk about a great breeder If you've hatched that many you've undoubtedly sold some, do you have a website? Has a fair number of his offspring had extremely bright red heads like the "trophy" cherryheads? Thanks again for the education and conversation!

 

[cdmay]

Moe is my favorite because he comes out to see me and looks me right in the eye. He isn't shy and he will stand up as tall as he possibly can to 'challenge' me if his females are around. He acts exactly like a miniature Galapagos tortoise. Plus, he has beat the crap out of any other male that I have tried to keep with him even though he ended up with a bloody nose each time.
He can throw some very nice looking hatchlings (as well as some uglies). These are all from Moe...

Sorry, I do not have a website.
I simply called cherryheads 'cherryheads' even though I think it is a stupid and misleading name. Maybe when we get better information about EXACTLY where they are naturally found we can come up with something better.
One last thing, there are numerous farms in Brazil that supposedly produce cherryheads. I have no idea which one (s) export to the dealers here in the US.

 

[Bryan]

Beautiful pics of your hatchlings! IMO it would be best served to call them the Bahia Brazil Red foot as apparently that is where they are from (although they still aren't 100% sure, it still makes the most sense as that is where they seem to be raised). Or take a page from fish taxonomists and name it Geochelone Carbonaria sp. Bahia

This would give it a distinct name and it would be accepted as a sub species or geographic variant (which it is). That would take the cherryhead name right out of the equation. The book South American Tortoises shows a number of different colors on cherryheads which gives a lot more of a real life representation than just seeing the cream of the crop and expecting every specimen to have bright red heads and legs.

 

[Madkins007]

I like calling them Panamanian, Northern, Brazilian Forest (yellow-phase), Bahai, and Gran Chaco... but I'd bet no one else follows my lead. I think 'Bahia' is a handy term, even if not perfect. It gets the term 'cherry-head' out of the equation, and it leaves the possibility that the 'yellow-phase Brazilians' (which look like Northerns and are supposedly found in the flatter, more forested northern part of Brazil).

I suspect that as DNA and other research moves on that the Red-foot will be broken up into a few groups. My wildly unscientific bet would be-
NORTHERN RED-FOOT (Chelonoidis carbonaria) light plastron, north of the Amazon
SOUTHERN RED-FOOT (Chelonoidis tabulata, re-using an old species name), dark plastron, south of the Amazon to Paraguay through the interior of Brazil
BAHIA RED-FOOT (Chelonoidis bahiaa?) dark plastron with radial patterns, slight snout, dark neck with fewer colorful scales

 

[Bryan]

I like calling them Panamanian, Northern, Brazilian Forest (yellow-phase), Bahai, and Gran Chaco... but I'd bet no one else follows my lead. I think 'Bahia' is a handy term, even if not perfect. It gets the term 'cherry-head' out of the equation, and it leaves the possibility that the 'yellow-phase Brazilians' (which look like Northerns and are supposedly found in the flatter, more forested northern part of Brazil).

I suspect that as DNA and other research moves on that the Red-foot will be broken up into a few groups. My wildly unscientific bet would be-
NORTHERN RED-FOOT (Chelonoidis carbonaria) light plastron, north of the Amazon
SOUTHERN RED-FOOT (Chelonoidis tabulata, re-using an old species name), dark plastron, south of the Amazon to Paraguay through the interior of Brazil
BAHIA RED-FOOT (Chelonoidis bahiaa?) dark plastron with radial patterns, slight snout, dark neck with fewer colorful scales

Agreed, Northern, Bahia, and Gran Chaco would be my bets as well for the common names of the 3 most distinct populations.