Parasites or HFS?

[ekm5015]

I am really starting to get worried that my hatchling which is going on 5 months either has parasites or Hatchling Failure Syndrome.

I got my tort on July 1st. At that point he was suppose to be around 3 months old. At the time I got him he weighed in at 49 grams. I have been keeping track of his weight daily and he hasn't seemed to be gaining any significant weight. Last week he finally seemed to be gaining some weight weighing in at 52 grams. Only to have him back to 48.8 grams today! WTF?

I am getting really upset. I have done everything right. His temps are 80-85 degrees around the clock with a basking spot of 105. The humidity is about 60-70% and he gets daily soaks. I give him a large pile of spring mix daily of which he only eats about a tea spoon full. Is that right? I thought sulcatas were suppose to be eating machines. Most of the time I check on him he is hanging out under his basking light, although he does roam the enclosure once in a while.

The only thing I can think that it can be is Hatchling failure syndrome or parasite, and as bad as it is to say I really hope he has parasites.

Am I being too worried that he has not gained weight over the past two months? I am taking him to the vet tomorrow with a stool sample, but I really have little confidence that the vet will know what he is talking about. What are your opinions? What do I do?

 

[tortoisenerd]

Can you show us photos of the enclosure? How does he spend most of his day? In what temperature area? My tort can eat a pile of greens that is about his size, some days less, some days more. Glad to hear you are going to the vet. You haven't had him two months yet so it could still be some settling in, but yes I'd want to see some weight gain. Some weeks the scale might show less than the week before due to poops and such, but the overall trend should be up. I hope there is something explainable going on as to me it sounds like something is preventing him from eating enough to be growing. Good sign is that he is eating and moving and pooping. Don't worry too much at this point because there aren't any red flags yet, just a yellow flag. What kind of UVB bulb or sun? Daily pure calcium powder? Is the shell harder than when you got him? If it starts to soften at all that is a red flag--it should harden slowly over time. What kind of thermometer did you use to check the temps? I'd use a temp gun if you don't have one, as some can be really far off. That way you can get temps all over the enclosure really quickly.

 

[ekm5015]

I will post some pics tomorrow. He usually spends most of the day in the outer perimeter of the power sun basking light which is about 90 degrees. Directly under the light it is ~105. He is eating and pooping daily, but I feel like he should be eating more. He gets either daily calcium powder or TNT with his greens/cactus/mizouri. I am not sure if his shell is getting softer, but the bottom of his she is kind of squishy. It is stiff but compresses when squeezed lightly. I have both a digital probe thermometer and a infrared thermometer that I check temps with.

 

[Tom]

Certainly have him checked for parasites to eliminate that as a possibility, but here's another thought.

I keep trying to tactfully say that daily supplements are a bad idea. Calcium interferes with the absorption of other vitamins and minerals, as well as some of the essential fatty acids. Too much vitamins is bad for any animal including humans. Try backing off on the supplements. Try once a week in a very small amount and see if things don't get better. Remember that some people use none at all and have very healthy tortoises.

Also, is he getting some regular sunshine? This coupled with a good diet should harden up his shell. Sunlight is like a magic potion for tortoises. Makes them more active, stimulates their appetite, gets all their systems revved up.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Every couple days you should be picking up your tort and giving it a once over, and at this time you should do a tactile check of the shell hardness so you'll be able to quickly identify if it is getting softer. Yes the tort's shell at this age should have some give to it, but you need to be very cautious it isn't softening any more. I also agree to back off a bit on the supplements. I'd do more of a very small amount of calcium daily or every other day, but its just a personal preference thing. Your tort may be avoiding the food if it has too much powder on it for their liking. Maybe back off to the point you see an increase in food intake? Make sure to offer a very large variety of greens and if the tort isn't going to the food on its own daily, place it in front of it. Too much cactus can cause loose stools, which may cause the food to move through too fast to get absorbed, so I'd be cautious if your tort is eating too much of it. The Mazuri has a bunch of supplements in it too, so the combo of everything could be a bit overkill. I'm not a fan of the Mazuri ingredients so I really limit it. Up to you. Important thing is to have the tort eat enough to be growing, and have a good healthy variety. Having a hide right next to the food helps them feel safe. The infrared thermometer should be great so I'd trust those temps. Your tort spending most of the day at 90 is pretty interesting because that is on the warm side, but at that age they seem to really like the heat.

 

[ekm5015]

Thanks guys. I will back off the supplements. Now that I think about it, I was probably giving him them too often and that may be why he wasnt eating much. Hopefully the visit to the vet goes well. I brought in a stool sample today and have the appointment this week.

 

[Laura]

Try a variety of foods that have some color.. small amout of grated carrot, squash, etc. that should entice him to eat. SUNSHINE is a must.... do you turn the lights off at night?

 

[tortoisenerd]

Also, what are the night temps? If kept too warm or too cold, that can throw the hatchling's eating off. I'd aim for about 70 F. Yes, no lights at night. 12-14 hours a day of light, then dark and a temp drop.

 

[ekm5015]

The Powersun is on a timer and goes on at 6am off at 9pm. He gets out in the sun a few days a week but usually goes and hides. The night temps are around 75-80 degrees heated by a CHE on a rheostat set to 80. Do you think that is too hot?

 

[tortoisenerd]

I'd want the night temps a bit lower. In the wild they do get a temp drop. I'd also want to make sure there is a spot in the enclosure in the 70s in addition to the areas between 80 and 105 you mention. Each temperature zone should have a hide as well. Hatchlings have been known to seek shelter before food or thermoregulation, so a hatchling may stay too hot or cold to use the hide. It is common for new owners to set up an enclosure with only one hide in the cool area, so the tort will stay there and not go bask and eat. I just want to make sure your tort isn't staying in the warm area because that is where the only hide is. There is some disagreeing over what temp to keep hatchlings at night, but I think everyone would agree with me they need a night temp drop, and 80 is likely a tad warm (75 is a pretty common number, and I'd say more like 70, so if you just drop it a tad to 70-75 that is a good idea). Once the tort is older down to 60 is just fine.

Where does the rheostat measure the temperature? Make sure it is at the tort's level, at the hottest part of the bulb's output (so its not actually getting hotter than you think). If the rheostat failed, would it ever get too hot? Does the tort stay in the part of the enclosure with the CHE at night? I say that because a CHE is more of a spot heat so it will be very hot at one point and quickly dissipate out. If the tort isn't near the CHE then it may even be too cold.

Over time as the tort gets out more you should see it venture out of the hide. Is the tort placed in an enclosure outside? I'd want it to not be more than a couple times the size of the indoor one to make the tort feel secure, and also so when the tort goes back inside it doesn't feel cramped by comparison to the outdoor enclosure (torts will pace and be otherwise unhappy to be penned up after a lot of freedom). Good to read the tort gets outside and has a hide. Just placing the tort out in a huge yard can be very overwhelming. If its a penned in enclosure, over time they will get used to it and recognize it as home.

Some other foods that can entice a tort are organic edible flowers (like roses, pansies, hibiscus, if you can find a source that doesn't spray stuff), radicchio, pumpkin, and frisee. Greens that have a smell to them like mustard might also be enticing. Maggie was mentioning something on another thread about the smell of the squash blossoms and such.

Good luck!

 

[Tom]

75-80 is perfect for night temps on a sulcata baby, especially if you've got it good and humid.

15 hours is a bit much for light. I use 13-14 in summer and only 11 in winter.

I can't remember, does your tort have some pyramiding starting? Did the breeder or broker keep him hot and dry all the time? If yes, then this may be your problem. If this is your problem, all you can do is provide the best possible conditions, which you are, and hope for the best. Also, if you do have organ damage due to chronic dehydration, the best, and only thing, I know to do is lots of hydration in the form of daily soaks, lots of humidity, humid hides and shell spraying.

I say all this because what you are describing sounds very similar to what my Daisy went through. She was kept totally dry for her first three months and when I got her, she didn't grow much for the first couple of years. Now, after doing all of the above, she is having a big growth spurt for the last couple of months. At three years old she's just over 6" and most of that size is pretty recent growth.

In contrast, my current, very well hydrated hatchling are absolutely thriving and growing. They are totally smooth and over 100 grams at ninety days.

 

[ekm5015]

Would a vet be able to tell me if there is organ damage? Or is it just wait and see type of thing?

 

[Angi]

I have the same problem with my 16 year old son. I hope it isn't parasites. He is 6'2" and 140 pounds. I don't know how many grams that is

 

[Tom]

Would a vet be able to tell me if there is organ damage? Or is it just wait and see type of thing?

I don't know. I'm guessing they can do blood work and try to tell some things. They should be able to assess kidney and liver function. I got this info (about chronic dehydration and organ damage for babies) from Danny in a post, so maybe he'd know more. He's in Daytona this weekend, but if you leave him a PM, I'm sure he'll get back to you. Give him a link to this thread, so he'll be up to speed on the discussion.

 

[ekm5015]

Thanks Tom. I'm hoping its not chronic dehydration. If it is, it was from before I got him. I have been following in your footsteps with the soakings, misting, moist substrate ect. Will see what the vet can tell me at this weeks appointment.

 

[Tom]

Thanks Tom. I'm hoping its not chronic dehydration. If it is, it was from before I got him. I have been following in your footsteps with the soakings, misting, moist substrate ect. Will see what the vet can tell me at this weeks appointment.

I don't want to misquote Danny, but he's talked about this several times. It goes like this: The baby animal has a bout of dehydration, but the the situation gets corrected and it survives. However, during the dehydration time, permanent damage is done to some of the internal organs. The tortoise eats and behaves normally for a while, sometimes 2 or 3 months, then dies suddenly for no apparent reason. If I've got this wrong, anyone should feel free to correct me.

Now comes my OPINION on the thing. I think the ones who survive it, like Daisy, had enough liver, kidney or other organ cells still functioning to just squeak by and then as they put on some size, new organ cells grow. In other words the damaged ones are gone for good, but new cells will have to grow. Obviously a 150 pound sulcata is going to have a bigger liver and kidneys than a 50 gram baby, so lots of new organ cells will have to grow, but those old damaged ones will never be okay. I wonder if you could see this in an necropsy of kidney tissue in one of these large survivors. Will there be a tiny spec of damaged tissue left over from when they were a dehydrated baby, or is it replaced by healthy tissue as the animal puts on the pounds?

The lesson I've learned from all this is to be very careful who I buy a hatchling tortoise from. Not too many breeders are up on the current info and are still housing their babies bone dry in tubs with rabbit pellets. I saw lots of this ignorance at the Pomona Show two weeks ago. The breeders don't even want to hear it from some stranger who they believe knows less than they do. I've realized that while its nice to talk to individual baby tortoise owners here on the forum, the real damage is being done by the people who hatch them out. I don't know how to reach them. Most (not all) are fairly close minded and consider themselves experts who know how things work. They don't want to told how they are wrong by some young upstart who doesn't have their level of experience. Sad, but true.

 

[ekm5015]

Yea I did some pretty extensive research before I made the purchase (6 months worth). I was down to either Tyler at TortoiseSupply or Marc at TurtleSource. At the time, Tyler was out of stock so I went with TurtleSource. Marc is a good guy and he knows what he is doing, just hope the tort was not dehydrated. Ivory Tortoise was up there too and I probably would have gone with them if I knew about Mr. Fife and his research at the time.