Pardalis Pardalis
- Thread starter John
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Ask onarock, I think he has GPP, but not sure.
Sorry.
Sorry.
I have one I strongly believe is P.P. and one that may be, but I can't prove either unfortunately.
I doubt anyone who has adult GPP has any paperwork to show where they came from. They're definatley from South Africa, but with so much diversity, I wouldn't think anyone knows exactly where they came from. A few months back I was searching for leopards from known regions. No one, not even the people importing adults when it was legal, knew where exactly the tortoises came from.
I would think it highly unlikely...the only ones that I know could have pulled that off would be Richard and Jerry. Even sulcatas...you really wouldn't know unless they have that tell tale hole in their pygal.
All of the babies I sold last year, including my 13, are from direct SA imported adults and the second or third generation offspring of those original imports. They came in in 1990 and the breeder still has the import paperwork. He started with 10 adults. I've emailed to ask him exactly where in SA they came from, but no response yet. He just doesn't care to get all that involved with stuff.
Recently, I just discovered that a long time friend and business associate has two great big females from that same batch of 1990 imports, but I'm pretty sure they have no paper work on them. Still waiting for pics.
Recently, I just discovered that a long time friend and business associate has two great big females from that same batch of 1990 imports, but I'm pretty sure they have no paper work on them. Still waiting for pics.
Tom - you may have the closest authentic P.P. torts around!! I haven't heard of anyone else who has the known lineage of their torts like you do.
Very interesting 
turn right
turn right
Greg T said:
Well its all just one guy. Pretty easy to keep track of. The actual importer was a good friend of his and brought in a whole bunch. Once they arrived here in CA he called his friend, the breeder that I got mine from, to come down and cherry pick as many as he wanted. He could only afford 10 at $1000 a piece. He got copies of all the import paper work from his friend so that everything could be verified. He told me several stories about things that have happened over the years. He had this one male who was really big and a total breeding machine. He said he would bounce around like a pinball in the enclosure from one female to the other breeding them all. I guess he got into all sorts of mischief. He reminded me of Maggie's Bob when he was telling me the stories. I don't remember exactly how, but I think that super-male died somehow a few years ago. While I was there, I was just completely beside myself. I feel very privileged and lucky to have been allowed to set foot there.
Also, I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure **** Barlett (sorry if I misspelled it), the other Gpp breeder in FL can verify his too. This is what I've been told anyway.
It seems like over the last 20 years the offspring from these originals should be out there in the world breeding. Because they cost so much more, I would guess that the people know what they have. So I'm perplexed as to why there are not more people breeding Gpp from the offspring of these original few. 1000's of babies have been sold over the years. Where did they all go? I know a lot of them were housed with babcocki and produced "hybrids", but surely some of them must have been bred pure...
It would be cool to see any paperwork associated with imported pardalis, that's really the only way one can be absolutely sure about the country of origin. On top of that one would need collecting data to specify locale. Beyond that, genetic info would need to be compared to specify sub.sp. Its just alot of work to be sure that one has 100% pure.
Actually the reason for this question is not so much about tortoises at all, I'm more curious to find out just how many people pay three times the price for an animal based on someone else's word. I suspect that there are many hybrids out there that can pass for pardalis pardalis. I imagine for you pet people its no big deal, but for the people out there that have purchased animals in the hopes of some day breeding them, what happens when the technology comes available at a reasonable price to due genetic testing, or some scientist stumbles onto something that changes all the rules. And by the way since babcocki also inhabit parts of south africa merely being able to prove an animal was from there does not prove its genetics. Here's one to think about, I have to drive an hour and a half to the northern part of the state to find eastern milksnakes so if I caught a bunch and brought them home and put them up for sale at a higher price calling them southern milks who could disprove my claims of origin, and how many would buy them just based on my claim?
Good point John. Does anyone know what information the import paperwork would show? Would it identify where the animals were collected? if it came from the wild, or a breeding farm? I would guess that even if someone did have the paperwork, the likely hood that they would be willing to show it to all their buyers would be small...maybe I'm wrong. So, someone else's word is all we have right?
I wouldn't drop a ton of money on an adult that was claimed to be Gpp, unless there was no doubt, like Paul's female pardalis that he showed us awhile ago. At least with the hatchlings there's plenty of tell tale signs that distinguish itself from the common babcocki. So for me it's worth the extra money to pay for a tortoise that shows those different characteristics, whether or not they actually came from South Africa couldn't be proven without some testing, so I'll just have to live with that.
I wouldn't drop a ton of money on an adult that was claimed to be Gpp, unless there was no doubt, like Paul's female pardalis that he showed us awhile ago. At least with the hatchlings there's plenty of tell tale signs that distinguish itself from the common babcocki. So for me it's worth the extra money to pay for a tortoise that shows those different characteristics, whether or not they actually came from South Africa couldn't be proven without some testing, so I'll just have to live with that.
Likewise, good points John. And I agree with Neal that even just visually there is clearly a difference between the two types available in the pet trade over here. A lot of the scientists are now saying that there is only one species with no valid subspecific status anymore anyway. If one were to follow this way of thinking, then we would probably end up selling them with common names that denote their area of origin, somewhat like they do with the panther chameleons from Madagascar. Folks are willing to pay more for specimens with certain characteristics and colors that are typical to a given region, eg: "Nosy Be Panthers."
However we all decide to classify them, the "SA" looking type are far more rare and in most cases easily distinguishable, and so the basic market laws of supply and demand will always apply. I must admit that the whole hybrid thing does worry me too...
However we all decide to classify them, the "SA" looking type are far more rare and in most cases easily distinguishable, and so the basic market laws of supply and demand will always apply. I must admit that the whole hybrid thing does worry me too...
Tom's mention of one side of the scientific community's ongoing argument leeds to another concern, Some argue there are something like eight or nine subspecies, I guess if this is ever accepted theres gonna be alot a muts in the states. Also Tom and Neal, There is a visual difference between the hybrid I have and the Babcoki I have just not the one people have been ledto look for (I say led because some of the big names in leopards have shown animals in south africa that do not have the hobby standard marks) And if I had the paperwork to prove my south africans were indeed authentic you bet your azz I'd be willing to show it, just as i'd be willing to collect more money for it.
squamata said:
What are the differences between the two do you have any comparison pic's you can post?
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