Penelope is pyramiding and I don't know why!

Nursemomzie

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My Leopard tortoise is 11 months old and weighs 321 gm. She looks like she's pyramiding to me! I don't understand why. Her enclosure is closed chamber and the humidity is always between 80 and 90%. When she goes into her hide at night, it is closed chamber as well with humidity 95-100% every night. Temps are warm enough at 95-98 and at night are about 83. UVB is good. I have 2 10.0 UVB lamps at 8" high. I have 4 digital temp/hygrometers and 5 digital thermometers. I soak her every single night for 30-45 minutes. It's been cool here so I haven't been able to put her outside yet this year. She eats a variety of clover, radish leaves, dandelions, collard greens, and mazuri. She drinks well and has a hearty appetite. I tried to do everything right! I don't know what else to do. Please help! 1554166805261.jpeg1554166849579.jpeg
 

Callum1

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My Leopard tortoise is 11 months old and weighs 321 gm. She looks like she's pyramiding to me! I don't understand why. Her enclosure is closed chamber and the humidity is always between 80 and 90%. When she goes into her hide at night, it is closed chamber as well with humidity 95-100% every night. Temps are warm enough at 95-98 and at night are about 83. UVB is good. I have 2 10.0 UVB lamps at 8" high. I have 4 digital temp/hygrometers and 5 digital thermometers. I soak her every single night for 30-45 minutes. It's been cool here so I haven't been able to put her outside yet this year. She eats a variety of clover, radish leaves, dandelions, collard greens, and mazuri. She drinks well and has a hearty appetite. I tried to do everything right! I don't know what else to do. Please help! View attachment 268766View attachment 268767
Leopards have a natural pyramiding! Don't worry. Google a few pictures of adults leopard tortoises to see
 

JoesMum

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Hi

Can you post pictures of your enclosure and lighting please?

I disagree that they are naturally pyramidded. Raised in the correct humidity and temperatures they grow perfectly smooth.

That said, existing pyramidding doesn’t go away. It just becomes less obvious as the tortoise grows.

Have you read @Tom ‘s care sheets?. He is one of TFO’s species experts working hard to correct the outdated information widely available on the internet and from pet stores and, sadly, from some breeders and vets too.

How to raise a healthy Leopard Tortoise
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/


For those that have a young Leopard Tort
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
 

Tom

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What type of basking lamp are you using? What is the temperature directly under it? Lay a small pice of 2x4 under it and then place a digital thermometer on top of the wood directly under the lamp and let it cook for an hour. This will tell you the basking temp at tortoise height.

I can't tell from your pics because they are straight down, but it looks like the pyramiding might be getting better. Take a profile shot to show this. How long have you had the tortoise? If it was growing in dry conditions before you got it, it will take a long time to stop the pyramiding that was already in progress.
 

Markw84

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Looks to me like there was excessive pyramiding about 6-8 months ago. Did you leave your tortoise outdoors last summer for extended periods. From what I see, I would say your tortoise is doing much better indoors and is showing the pyramiding that formed from periods when kept outdoors.

Can we see a picture of your indoor enclosure and the outdoor enclosure? We can help with better understanding of how your tortoise is being kept.
 

Nursemomzie

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What type of basking lamp are you using? What is the temperature directly under it? Lay a small pice of 2x4 under it and then place a digital thermometer on top of the wood directly under the lamp and let it cook for an hour. This will tell you the basking temp at tortoise height.

I can't tell from your pics because they are straight down, but it looks like the pyramiding might be getting better. Take a profile shot to show this. How long have you had the tortoise? If it was growing in dry conditions before you got it, it will take a long time to stop the pyramiding that was already in progress.
I will get a picture of my enclosure and a profile shot this evening when I get home from work. I have something directly under my basking light so she can't get too hot. I'll double check temps there just in case. She's never even close to the basking area though. She's never been interested. I have a camera on her and check on her several times throughout the day. I've had her ever since she was a hatchling. Tortoise Supply estimated her birthday to be May 1st, 2018. I got her on June 15th. She was only 23 gm when I got her. She's been in perfect conditions (I think) ever since. My husband and I studied your care sheets thoroughly and made sure we had everything right before we got her. She gets vitamins and calcium every other day. I alternate them. Can over feeding and rapid growth cause pyramiding? I could certainly be guilty of that!
 

Yvonne G

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I agree it looks like the pyramiding happened before and is smoothing out now.

@Callum1 - Yes, some leopards pyramid in the wild, but a captive leopard doesn't have to. Being kept in warm, humid conditions helps them to grow smoothly, and we have many examples to show you of such a fact. @Will - will you please post some pictures of the leopards you held back?
 
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Nursemomzie

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Looks to me like there was excessive pyramiding about 6-8 months ago. Did you leave your tortoise outdoors last summer for extended periods. From what I see, I would say your tortoise is doing much better indoors and is showing the pyramiding that formed from periods when kept outdoors.

Can we see a picture of your indoor enclosure and the outdoor enclosure? We can help with better understanding of how your tortoise is being kept.
She would only be outside about 30 minutes 2 or 3 times a week. Do you think she wasn't out there enough? She's been indoors all winter and it's still pretty cool outside here. I'll get some pics up this evening.
 

Tom

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She would only be outside about 30 minutes 2 or 3 times a week. Do you think she wasn't out there enough? She's been indoors all winter and it's still pretty cool outside here. I'll get some pics up this evening.
Pyramiding is not caused by food and its not caused by over or under supplementation.

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This can manifest in many ways.

Some species are more prone to it. Leopards being one of the most prone to it. Some individuals within a species are more prone to it. Leaving babies outside for long periods of time tends to increase it. Using MVBs, spot bulbs, or bulbs that are too hot tend to increase it. Having heat lamps and heating elements outside the enclosure tends to increase it.

There is still a lot we don't know about it. I've been able to stop it completely in all sulcatas and my SA leopards. Around 10-20% of regular leopards and my Burmese stars still seem to show at least some mild pyramiding no matter what I do. Clutchmates growing up in the same enclosure on the same food and same routine show different results. Is it behavioral, as in the choices they might be making like basking more under the lamps or hiding in the humid hide more? Is it genetics? Both? Something else? I don't know yet. The quest for knowledge continues...

What I do know is that if all else is good, pyramiding is only cosmetic and your tortoise can be very healthy, even with some mild pyramiding.
 

Ben02

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Pyramiding is not caused by food and its not caused by over or under supplementation.

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This can manifest in many ways.

Some species are more prone to it. Leopards being one of the most prone to it. Some individuals within a species are more prone to it. Leaving babies outside for long periods of time tends to increase it. Using MVBs, spot bulbs, or bulbs that are too hot tend to increase it. Having heat lamps and heating elements outside the enclosure tends to increase it.

There is still a lot we don't know about it. I've been able to stop it completely in all sulcatas and my SA leopards. Around 10-20% of regular leopards and my Burmese stars still seem to show at least some mild pyramiding no matter what I do. Clutchmates growing up in the same enclosure on the same food and same routine show different results. Is it behavioral, as in the choices they might be making like basking more under the lamps or hiding in the humid hide more? Is it genetics? Both? Something else? I don't know yet. The quest for knowledge continues...

What I do know is that if all else is good, pyramiding is only cosmetic and your tortoise can be very healthy, even with some mild pyramiding.
Will we ever find out?
 

Yvonne G

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Will we ever find out?
The other day I read an old post made by Anyfoot wondering if the size of the air sac in the egg, or a low humidity during incubation might contribute to the baby being more prone towards pyramiding. I tried to go back and find it to put it up in our Advanced section, but I've lost it.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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https://www.facebook.com/KapidoloFarms/ . look at the videos posted here. They are so unusually smooth and round I have been accused of applying some metaphysical foolery on them.

As far as posting images here, yeah, when the pop-up ads die down. They are worse than the old version when you didn't log in.
 

Nursemomzie

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What type of basking lamp are you using? What is the temperature directly under it? Lay a small pice of 2x4 under it and then place a digital thermometer on top of the wood directly under the lamp and let it cook for an hour. This will tell you the basking temp at tortoise height.

I can't tell from your pics because they are straight down, but it looks like the pyramiding might be getting better. Take a profile shot to show this. How long have you had the tortoise? If it was growing in dry conditions before you got it, it will take a long time to stop the pyramiding that was already in progress.
Here are my pictures ya'll requested. By the way, I really appreciate all of y'all for trying to help!20190402_200902.jpeg20190402_200723.jpeg20190402_200810.jpeg20190402_200800.jpeg20190402_202024.jpeg20190402_202036.jpeg
 

Tom

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Something is causing the carapace to be too dry. Here are some possibilities:
  1. Too much time outside.
  2. Lights on the outside of a closed chamber.
  3. Basking temp is hotter than you think it is.
  4. Wrong type of basking bulbs.
Any or all of these could be contributing factors.
 

William Lee Kohler

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Leopards have a natural pyramiding! Don't worry. Google a few pictures of adults leopard tortoises to see

Not the wild ones I've seen pictures of. They're nice and smooth. Havn't seen a single captive one on this site that was halfway normal looking.
 

William Lee Kohler

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My Leopard tortoise is 11 months old and weighs 321 gm. She looks like she's pyramiding to me! I don't understand why. Her enclosure is closed chamber and the humidity is always between 80 and 90%. When she goes into her hide at night, it is closed chamber as well with humidity 95-100% every night. Temps are warm enough at 95-98 and at night are about 83. UVB is good. I have 2 10.0 UVB lamps at 8" high. I have 4 digital temp/hygrometers and 5 digital thermometers. I soak her every single night for 30-45 minutes. It's been cool here so I haven't been able to put her outside yet this year. She eats a variety of clover, radish leaves, dandelions, collard greens, and mazuri. She drinks well and has a hearty appetite. I tried to do everything right! I don't know what else to do. Please help! View attachment 268766View attachment 268767

Your lights should be 4' tubes and not little round bulbs.
 

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