People in colder climates: How do you handle night temps during winter?

[GBtortoises]

Sorry folks, I completely disagree that Leopards (or any other arid species) should be kept so hot at night. First of all 65-70 degrees and a reasonable humidity level will not "kill" them. 80% humidity is not reasonable for arid species either. Reasonable would be 60-70% at night.

What does one do to maintain humidity that he with temperatures that warm when they've reached adult size? Why are those extremes supposedly required for baby Leopards but not adults? Except to promote smooth growth when young what is the purpose of such high humidity and temperatures at night? Anyone?

The symptoms of URI are: Laborered breathing, gaping mouth often with an outstretched neck, wheezing, usually continual basking under a heat source and lethargy in serious cases. Sneezing and yawning aren't symptoms of URI. Sneezing is a result of dry nasal irritants (dust, pollen, etc...). And yawning is just that, yawning.

 

[wellington]

When leopards are older they don't need as high of a humidity or temp. Those of us that are trying to keep our babies from pyramiding need the higher humidity which In turn require a higher temp. Why, so they don't get sick and die. I thought you didn't have leopards or sulcatas? Why would you want to insist on telling this person or someone else reading this that they can keep those lower temps with a baby leopard? Anyone paying attention to raising a leopard in the higher humidiies would be asking for sick babies with 65-70 degrees temps.

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Oops, sorry your not the one that said you didn't have leopards. However I still think your promoting people having sick torts with that low of temps, with the higher humidity.

 

[EKLC]

Sorry folks, I completely disagree that Leopards (or any other arid species) should be kept so hot at night. First of all 65-70 degrees and a reasonable humidity level will not "kill" them. 80% humidity is not reasonable for arid species either. Reasonable would be 60-70% at night.

What does one do to maintain humidity that he with temperatures that warm when they've reached adult size? Why are those extremes supposedly required for baby Leopards but not adults? Except to promote smooth growth when young what is the purpose of such high humidity and temperatures at night? Anyone?

The symptoms of URI are: Laborered breathing, gaping mouth often with an outstretched neck, wheezing, usually continual basking under a heat source and lethargy in serious cases. Sneezing and yawning aren't symptoms of URI. Sneezing is a result of dry nasal irritants (dust, pollen, etc...). And yawning is just that, yawning.

Small torts have a much higher surface area to volume ratio than adult torts, so they are not able to hold onto water and heat as well. I think given this fact alone, it is obvious that hatchlings and adults require different conditions, but who knows just what this means in terms of temperatures and humidity levels.

For large torts you could confidently look at the weather report for tanzania and deduce that they are doing fine with 65 degree night time temps and 30% daytime humidity. But who knows what the effective conditions are for a hatchling who might be firmly tucked in against the thermal mass of the earth or on moist warm soil beneath a large rock?

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

GTT, looking at above ground ambient temps on the entire continent of Africa, the leopard's range, is of very limited benefit here. That slippery slope has caused all sorts of husbandry problems historically. 65-70 at night is fine for an adult leopard in a warm dry climate, in a heated night box, where day time temps will get nice and warm the next day. Not for a baby in an indoor humid enclosure.

Well, again, I defer to you leopard tortoise people on this one, since I have never kept that species. However, having been to Kenya and Tanzania, which are in the leopard tortoise's range, I can say that the nights there can get chilly. And since leopard tortoises dig pallets under vegetation without actually burrowing underground, they would be somewhat exposed to those conditions. Granted, babies hatch during the warmer and wetter part of the year (like sulcatas). However, I wouldn't think they need nighttime temperatures in the 80s, or nighttime humidity levels in the 80s, either. I suppose it depends on whether you're getting good results, though.

 

[Tortus]

Interesting comments.

I've read that baby leopards hide in burrows at night which are more humid, and I guess would stay warmer due to retained heat from the day. I've also read that they don't dig burrows. Mine prefers to dig down into the substrate a bit and sleep rather than go into one of the hides. All I can normally see is the top of its shell.

How true this is about wild leopard babies I don't know, but I don't want mine getting sick. If 80 degree night temps won't harm the animal I think I'll try staying with that for the first year.

 

[Tom]

GTT, looking at above ground ambient temps on the entire continent of Africa, the leopard's range, is of very limited benefit here. That slippery slope has caused all sorts of husbandry problems historically. 65-70 at night is fine for an adult leopard in a warm dry climate, in a heated night box, where day time temps will get nice and warm the next day. Not for a baby in an indoor humid enclosure.

Well, again, I defer to you leopard tortoise people on this one, since I have never kept that species. However, having been to Kenya and Tanzania, which are in the leopard tortoise's range, I can say that the nights there can get chilly. And since leopard tortoises dig pallets under vegetation without actually burrowing underground, they would be somewhat exposed to those conditions. Granted, babies hatch during the warmer and wetter part of the year (like sulcatas). However, I wouldn't think they need nighttime temperatures in the 80s, or nighttime humidity levels in the 80s, either. I suppose it depends on whether you're getting good results, though.

Please re-read the first two sentences of my reply above. I spent 4 months in South Africa, also in the leopards range. There were a few days where snow gear was necessary. The high for some days, never got out of the low 40's. This is an area where I had previously observed wild leopards out walking around. There are LOTS of theories to explain this disconnect between temperature extremes in the wild and what happens here in the US in captive situations, but none of them are satisfactory to me. I do not have a concrete explanation for this, and neither does anyone else. What I do have is a lot of first hand knowledge of what DOES and what does NOT work here in the United States in our typical captive environments. Moderate humidity does NOT work. Cooler temps with either moderate or high humidity often leads to respiratory infections. Not always, but often. Ask the Florida keepers how leopards do over there. Ask TerryK in TN what his experience with leopards was. I can show failure after failure of all sorts of "reasonable" or more "natural" styles of housing them. Neal even claims "mixed" results with housing methods that seem to be a closer simulation to what would happen in the wild. I tried many methods myself, and all failed. What I can NOT show is one single failure either of smooth growth or health for a baby leopard that was started well hydrated and raised in a warm, high humidity environment. Every single one that is kept at 80 degrees with 80% humidity grows up smooth and healthy and pyramid free. No other method has produced anything even resembling success for me, yet every single one I have done, or seen done with high temps and high humidity turns out perfectly. The examples are all over this forum. For two decades I tried, and failed, to reconcile these facts with the known facts about the climate and temperatures in the wild leopards range. I have given up. And really, it doesn't matter that I can't line those two thing up. What really matters is what works in normal every day life for American tortoise keepers, and what fails. I have thorough knowledge of both, sadly. Many new keepers here on the forum only know what works, and I am very happy to say they are completely ignorant about what will fail and hopefully always will be. We simply do not need anymore stunted, pyramided, or sick leopards to prove these points anymore.

Two last points.
What has been observed in the wild with leopards, and sulcatas too, is entirely based on observation and study of adults. NO ONE knows where the babies go, what they do, what the temps or humidity is where they are, what they eat, how fast they grow... NOTHING is known.

THE largest producer of hatchling sulcatas in the WORLD has personally told me that he thinks people keep babies too cold. He never lets his drop any lower than 80 at any time, and they spend most of their time with an ambient significantly warmer than that. Usually in the 90's all day, plus a hot basking light on top of that ambient. Richard Fife, told me that he keeps his baby room at an ambient of 80 all the time too. I just bring these two things up to demonstrate that its not just some guy on an internet forum making this stuff up...

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Sorry folks, I completely disagree that Leopards (or any other arid species) should be kept so hot at night. First of all 65-70 degrees and a reasonable humidity level will not "kill" them. 80% humidity is not reasonable for arid species either. Reasonable would be 60-70% at night.

What does one do to maintain humidity that he with temperatures that warm when they've reached adult size? Why are those extremes supposedly required for baby Leopards but not adults? Except to promote smooth growth when young what is the purpose of such high humidity and temperatures at night? Anyone?

Please see the above first.

First of all, "reasonable humidity" and 65 degree temps CAN kill leopards. Seen it many times unfortunately. Also, the range of the leopard is HUGE and encompasses MANY types of climates. I think it is a mistake to label this entire species an "arid" species. Many of the areas where they occur have very wet climates. The climate down on the Cape is cold, clammy, rainy and foggy, much like San Francisco here in CA, for example.

You don't need the higher humidity levels and temps once they reach adolescence. It IS simply to promote smooth growth and good health when they are young. As they get older, mine spend more and more time outside in the dry Southern CA climate and variable temps. Soon, they will live outside 24/7, with an appropriate heated shelter, just like my sulcatas. But I didn't do this when they were tiny hatchlings. As it is now, they are outside all day every day. They go out around 8:30 most mornings and come in between 8 and 10pm usually, for the night. No one ever sees hatchlings walking around out in the open in the natural range. We don't have any idea what they need or what they do. By contrast adults are seen out in the open regularly and are easy to find. There is something in the mystery of the life of a wild baby that would answer your question. I don't know what it is, and neither does anyone else on the planet. I do, however, know what fails, and what succeeds, in a captive environment.

 

[Tortus]

Tom, I'm going with your advice. When the lights go out my humidity goes up to 80% (as long as I keep the substrate over the heat pad moist) and I'll do whatever necessary to keep the temp above 80 at all times. Just fishing for more suggestions here.

I find all this fascinating. I'll continue to post monthly pics of my leopard's progress in my other thread over the next year to see if there's any pyramiding.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

What really matters is what works in normal every day life for American tortoise keepers, and what fails.

Very interesting stuff. Well, like I said, if you know what works, then I guess that's what counts.

 

[Tom]

I don't know if GB will come back to this thread or not, but it should be noted that the man has more than 25 years of experience with many species. If I were housing a russian or a hermanni, he is the FIRST person I would ask for advice, and I would do it exactly as he says to do it. For leopards and sulcatas, I have learned through much trial and error, and failure, what works and what doesn't. I just want it known that I have nothing but respect for the man, even though we disagree on this particular issue.

 

[Neal]

While there's a lot on this thread to go over, which I don't have the time to at the moment, I just wanted to clarify that in terms of pyramiding when I said my way of doing things yields mixed results I don't mean that I am experiencing success and failure. The ones I have raised that do have some pyramiding which slight but distinguishable pyramiding, and far less extreme than one would see in a tortoise that has been kept completely dry. I still feel it is a success. And because I believe that some leopards pyramid naturally, I do think it is a more "natural" way. But I'm trying to determine why I am seeing tortoises that are completely smooth and tortoises that pyramid slightly when they were produced from the same parents, kept in the same exact environment, and often from the same clutch.

To briefly attempt to post on topic, I think you should shoot for 80 degrees at night, but even in the high 70's you'll be OK if you are maintaining some humidity. I too have seen leopards go south very quickly if the night time temperatures are kept in the low 70's with high amounts of humidity. I do know leopard keepers in Florida and Hawaii who keep their babies outside 24/7 where the humidity is very high and temperatures drop down to the 60's. They claim that they have never had issues, and I don't disbelieve them, I just have not experienced the same unless the humidity is reduced significantly.

 

[GBtortoises]

I don't know if GB will come back to this thread or not, but it should be noted that the man has more than 25 years of experience with many species. If I were housing a russian or a hermanni, he is the FIRST person I would ask for advice, and I would do it exactly as he says to do it. For leopards and sulcatas, I have learned through much trial and error, and failure, what works and what doesn't. I just want it known that I have nothing but respect for the man, even though we disagree on this particular issue.

I have been following the thread, as well as some of the unfounded believes in the thread posted by others.
My intention was not to slam Tom whatsoever although it may appear that way. We have talked quite a bit in the past and still do. We both seek to achieve the same results, it's just that we sometimes have slightly different methods to do so. Yes, we do disagree on some things, any person that thinks for themselves will disagree with someone else eventually.
But, I maintain that keeping a tortoise, any tortoise, regardless of species and geographic origin at daytime activity level temperatures, regardless of humidity is not good. Many of you are missing the point and screaming humdity, humidity, humidity! I wholeheartdly agree that a reasonable humidity level is important to smooth growth in a captive situation. All anyone has to do is search my posts and they will quickly find that I advocate and promote hydration as three key elements: Body hydration (drinking), reasonable substrate moisture and reasonable ambient air humidity. They will also find within those posts that I advocate and promote a temperature differential from day to night. That differential varies from species to species depending upon each species evolutionary tolerance of their environment. This applies even to arid species tortoises. And just for the record, I have kept Sulcata and Leopard tortoises, sucessfully and smoothly, despite my local climate which really was not ideal for them. Long, long before this forum came into existance. Before the internet came into existance for that matter! (Thank you Al Gore, LOL).
By keeping a tortoise consistently, night and day, at activity level temperatures, not giving it the rest period that it needs to cool down, which is as important as warming up, a situation is created, with other factors being in place, fosters accelerated growth. It is permanent, as permanent as pyramiding. How do I know this to be true? I've seen several photos of such tortoises, including many posted on this site. Some from the same people the follow the regimine of keeping tortoises too hot most of the time.
So again, I respect Tom, always have, but I do not agree with eveything that he advocates because I have seen results that make me believe otherwise.

 

[Tortus]

What does "accelerated growth" look like?

Now I'm confused. Two very conflicting opinions. I mainly keep arid herp species and have always let the temps drop low at night. I'm just unsure now if this is safe with a baby leopard in a relatively humid environment.

 

[GBtortoises]

Serious cases of accelerated growth give the general appearance that the tortoise's shell is too big for the body. The shell grows with the carapace scutes usually flat in the center with often exaggerated growth rings around the edges, these highly ridged growth rings are usually very prominent on the plastron. The growth also effects the edges of the shell, at the bridge where the carapace and plastron meet in one or both of two ways. It causes a very more extended than normal, translucent growth at the pointed edges of the where the carapace and plastron meet. Not to be confused with normal new growth that is also slightly translucent but does not extend as far from the main part of the shell. In severe cases those edges are often upturned too. The nails on the feet are extremely elongated, narrow and usually also translucent. The beak will also have a very elongated translucent appearance. When viewed overall the individual scales of the tortoise will appear to stand out, or stand alone, many being larger than would appear normal for a tortoise of the given size. Because of the enlarged scale growth around the head the eyes of many species may appear to be smaller than would be expected for a tortoise of the given size. Overall with most species the animal will be very light in color compared to a "regular" counterpart.
Accelerated growth has a few key contributing factors. The most prevelant and the also the catalyst is the tortoise being kept in excessively hot temperatures for extended periods of time.

Again, there is no reason to keep an arid species as humid as 80% day and night. There is also no reason to keep it as warm as 80 degrees day and night. While a reasonable humidity level may aid for good smooth growth in captivity for arid species as it does with other species that level of humdity, as well as temperature at night are above reasonable.

 

[tortadise]

Serious cases of accelerated growth give the general appearance that the tortoise's shell is too big for the body. The shell grows with the carapace scutes usually flat in the center with often exaggerated growth rings around the edges, these highly ridged growth rings are usually very prominent on the plastron. The growth also effects the edges of the shell, at the bridge where the carapace and plastron meet in one or both of two ways. It causes a very more extended than normal, translucent growth at the pointed edges of the where the carapace and plastron meet. Not to be confused with normal new growth that is also slightly translucent but does not extend as far from the main part of the shell. In severe cases those edges are often upturned too. The nails on the feet are extremely elongated, narrow and usually also translucent. The beak will also have a very elongated translucent appearance. When viewed overall the individual scales of the tortoise will appear to stand out, or stand alone, many being larger than would appear normal for a tortoise of the given size. Because of the enlarged scale growth around the head the eyes of many species may appear to be smaller than would be expected for a tortoise of the given size. Overall with most species the animal will be very light in color compared to a "regular" counterpart.
Accelerated growth has a few key contributing factors. The most prevelant and the also the catalyst is the tortoise being kept in excessively hot temperatures for extended periods of time.

Again, there is no reason to keep an arid species as humid as 80% day and night. There is also no reason to keep it as warm as 80 degrees day and night. While a reasonable humidity level may aid for good smooth growth in captivity for arid species as it does with other species that level of humdity, as well as temperature at night are above reasonable.

Well put. I find your methods the almost exact that I practice with my hatchling sulcatas, chacos, and leopards. I feel the substrate giving off humidity as well as soaking and making certain the animal is drinking and keeping themselves with sustained hydration has worked very well for me.

 

[Tortus]

So what would you consider a safe night temp in a humid enclosure?

I've heard people here saying theirs got respiratory infections if they dropped too low. My humidity has never gone over 80% and only gets that high when the lights are off.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Well put. I find your methods the almost exact that I practice with my hatchling sulcatas, chacos, and leopards. I feel the substrate giving off humidity as well as soaking and making certain the animal is drinking and keeping themselves with sustained hydration has worked very well for me.

Yes, GB's comments are well put. I would have thought that replicating nature, or at least the good parts of nature, would be the way to go. However, not having kept leopard tortoises myself, I do not know whether that is particularly difficult to do for that species. Maybe folks like Tom are right to take a more artificial approach?

Leopards are funny. They are grassland (savanna) animals, yet they can be found in forests. And depending on the subspecies, they may come from the tropics or the subtropical/temperate zone. In short, like most tortoises and box turtles, they occupy a wide range and may have different requirements based on their population of origin, as well as their age. Babies hatch during the warmer, wetter part of the year. So maybe it's a good idea to mimic those conditions in captivity, rather than the cooler, drier conditions that older tortoises may tolerate or prefer. I would also think it's important to know where your leopard tortoise is from, or whether it's a mix of the two subspecies, to provide the best environment possible.

 

[Tortus]

From what I'm hearing people don't know exactly what leopard babies do in nature, so it would be difficult to replicate the unknown. They're just going by personal experience.

 

[tortadise]

From what I'm hearing people don't know exactly what leopard babies do in nature, so it would be difficult to replicate the unknown. They're just going by personal experience.

This would be a very accurate statement. Also the muck of the subspecies being interbred and not kept pure in captivity has contributed to really not knowing how to simulate those natural climates. The countries and locales that leopards and sulcatas are found can vary quite a bit. Some leopards can be found in northern moutnainaous regions where lowers 60's as a high for 4 months out of the year could be a medium for there temps. Some may not see temps below 73 at night as a medium. The best way to give advise to you would be to stick to what is a safe medium for how you have raised yours. Mine can be found grazing at 55 degrees but with sun hitting them. What size is your animal?

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

From what I'm hearing people don't know exactly what leopard babies do in nature, so it would be difficult to replicate the unknown. They're just going by personal experience.

This would be a very accurate statement. Also the muck of the subspecies being interbred and not kept pure in captivity has contributed to really not knowing how to simulate those natural climates. The countries and locales that leopards and sulcatas are found can vary quite a bit. Some leopards can be found in northern moutnainaous regions where lowers 60's as a high for 4 months out of the year could be a medium for there temps. Some may not see temps below 73 at night as a medium. The best way to give advise to you would be to stick to what is a safe medium for how you have raised yours. Mine can be found grazing at 55 degrees but with sun hitting them. What size is your animal?

Good comments, although bear in mind that the colder parts of the leopard tortoise range are in the Southern Hemisphere, so the farther south you go, the colder it gets (as opposed to farther north, the way it is up here). Of course, higher altitude is still the same.

But yes, it is a shame that we don't know much about what baby leopard and sulcata tortoises do in nature. Judging by the conditions that experienced keepers like to keep them at, they probably live in pretty muggy conditions when they're very young.

One other comment, though. Leopard tortoises are one of the few species of tortoise that naturally exhibits some pyramiding in nature. Not deformity, of course, but noticeable knobs may be found on wild leopard tortoises. So maybe a certain amount of dryness is normal for them.

 

[Tortus]

From what I'm hearing people don't know exactly what leopard babies do in nature, so it would be difficult to replicate the unknown. They're just going by personal experience.

This would be a very accurate statement. Also the muck of the subspecies being interbred and not kept pure in captivity has contributed to really not knowing how to simulate those natural climates. The countries and locales that leopards and sulcatas are found can vary quite a bit. Some leopards can be found in northern moutnainaous regions where lowers 60's as a high for 4 months out of the year could be a medium for there temps. Some may not see temps below 73 at night as a medium. The best way to give advise to you would be to stick to what is a safe medium for how you have raised yours. Mine can be found grazing at 55 degrees but with sun hitting them. What size is your animal?

Mine is a little over 5 weeks old (hatched 8/15), just under 2". You can see pics in my thread on the leopard forum.

I got it at just under 4 weeks and I'm trying to get the best advice I can to raise it healthy and hopefully smooth. This is the first I'm hearing about accelerated growth, so now I'm kind of conflicted on how to raise it. I appreciate all the input.