Ed...these are two separate issues. There are many organizations out there to help humans, and many to help animals. One has nothing to do with the other.
PETA & The HSUS
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No I don't. I see it this way if your a person that would be cruel to animals then you're a person who'd be cruel to people too.
Candy said:
" One of the known warning signs of certain psychopathologies, including anti-social personality disorder, also known as psychopathic personality disorder, is a history of torturing pets and small animals, a behavior known as zoosadism. According to the New York Times, "[t]he FBI has found that a history of cruelty to animals is one of the traits that regularly appears in its computer records of serial rapists and murderers, and the standard diagnostic and treatment manual for psychiatric and emotional disorders lists cruelty to animals a diagnostic criterion for conduct disorders.[41] "A survey of psychiatric patients who had repeatedly tortured dogs and cats found all of them had high levels of aggression toward people as well, including one patient who had murdered a young boy."[41] Robert K. Ressler, an agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation's behavioral sciences unit, studied serial killers and noted,"Murderers like this (Jeffrey Dahmer) very often start out by killing and torturing animals as kids."[42] "
Not to mention the
Sources:
41: Felthous, Alan R. (1998). Aggression against Cats, Dogs, and People. In Cruelty to Animals and Interpersonal Violence: Readings in Research and Applications.. West Lafayette, Indiana: Purdue University Press. pp. 159–167.
42: http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/07/u...-killer.html?scp=309&sq=Daniel+Goleman&st=nyt
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-EJ said:
EJ, can't people be pro both human and animal rights/welfare? People can't contribute to both causes?
Npt to put words into ed's mouth but I think he means that most PETA members would be ok with humans being hurt if it meant animals would not. I guess it comes down to choice, my way we would all be able to choose to have pets, eat meat, go to a circuis or zoo, and wear fur. If PETA has their way our choices would be quite different. So I guess I like choice and freedom for all instead of for a select few. My 2 cents. Since this is my 5th or 6th post I guess it is now up to 12 cents.
I think we have all spent way too much 
DoctorCosmonaut said:
Intesting post Jordan, thanks for sharing!
Great post Jordan....you posted what I was thinking.
Candy said:
Ha ha ha, I get many more mean things said and disrespect shown to me by people that are PETA supporters (both in this forum and outside of it), or left wing animal rights people than I do from people who are rational, realistic thinkers. Just my experience. I'm much more scared by someone protesting with a PETA sign (out of fear of mental instability) than I am afraid of a hunter with a rifle. I can always shoot back, but you never know what these tree huggers are going to do LOL.
I find this thread to be quite interesting. I appreciate reading and considering opinions that I respect. It's much better than what I deal with, people at both ends of the spectrum while on duty.
Zoosadism is an excellent point and can be crucial in prosecuting cases involving juveniles.
I believe that any living and defenseless being needs protection.
There are two sayings that my grama taught me.
Nature has no mercy, people have the option.
You can tell a lot about a person by the way they treat their animals.
Oh, and you don't want to know my feelings on organized religion...
Zoosadism is an excellent point and can be crucial in prosecuting cases involving juveniles.
I believe that any living and defenseless being needs protection.
There are two sayings that my grama taught me.
Nature has no mercy, people have the option.
You can tell a lot about a person by the way they treat their animals.
Oh, and you don't want to know my feelings on organized religion...
I believe you said something similar before. Do you have a problem with this kind of conversation?
last time I looked this was a 'controversial' section of the forum.
last time I looked this was a 'controversial' section of the forum.
DoctorCosmonaut said:I think we have all spent way too much
-EJ said:I believe you said something similar before. Do you have a problem with this kind of conversation?
last time I looked this was a 'controversial' section of the forum.
DoctorCosmonaut said:I think we have all spent way too much
It was in response to dmmj's post... and I was joking along with them.
Entertainment is one purpose, sure, but the main reason for an animal in a zoo is to educate the general public and get them to care about it. We only save what we know and love. This creates "flagship" species which end up saving entire ecosystems.terryo said:
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Roachman26 said:
Shoot, I thought I was done with this topic... But you dragged me back in
This is very true what you said above.
For those of you who dislike fishing, consider this with an open mind if you will. Do you know what a steelhead is? How about the difference between a king samlon and a silver salmon? Do you know what a bull trout is or how about a cutthroat trout? Do you know the difference between a wild fish, vs a hatchery fish, vs a wild native fish, vs a farmed fish?
Here in the PNW, we have many endagered species of fish. How many of you are aware of the plight of these fish? Do you know the impact that fish farms have on the environment? How about logging and development? How about commercial fishing? Hatchery fish managment vs wild native fish? Water quality issues and their impacts on wild native fish?
I can go on and on. But the bottom line is, there is a group of people who are passionate about these issues and who do their part to hold the state accountable. Guess who these folks are? Tree huggers from Seattle? Maybe a small subset of them. How about radical PETA members? No way. HSUS? Clueless. It is the people who spend their free time on and in the water. The rivers, streams, beaver ponds, lakes, Puget Sound, Pacific Ocean. The guys who are out there fishing. The conservation minded sportsmen. These guys know these waters and the fish in them intimately. For many, the relationship is practically spritual. For others it is a way to stay connected to nature. For others a way to enjoy long standing family traditions together. And of course there are those who see it as a way to harvest some natural, healthy meat for the table. How can that be good for the fish? I can 100% guarantee you that without folks like these fisherman who love the resource and want to protect it for themselves and for generations to come, the fish would be completely wiped out by now. Over harvest by commercial fleets. Non-native species introduced and wiping out the wild native fish. Pollution and poor logging and development practices destroying critical fish spawning habbitat. Poachers who think of nothing but themselves and stealing from the rest of us. Nets strung accross the entire river by native american fish harvesters wiping out entire generations of salmon and steelhead in a single season.
If you don't learn about it... if you don't love it and take ownership of it... your ignorance and apathy do more to harm these fish than the folks out there practicing a little personal harvesting in a responsible and legal way, and those practicing a little catch and release fishing just be out there appreciating the beauty and experiences. They take protecting these resources personally and with conviction.
Entertainment is one purpose, sure, but the main reason for an animal in a zoo is to educate the general public and get them to care about it. We only save what we know and love. This creates "flagship" species which end up saving entire ecosystems.
I swore I was not even going to read any more posts here, but I have to say one more thing.... I hope this will be it for me....It's exhausting now...
So Richard, you are saying it's educational for us to go to a Zoo and see elephants chained to a post, walking around in a small circle, with nothing else to do....lions in a cage, pacing back and forth from boredom, crocks laying in a small pool where they can hardly turn around, etc., and these animals should be sacrificed ......which aren't even teaching us anything....to save the entire ecosystems?? Do you think that people going to the zoo to see a few animals suffering are learning anything?
Those kind of zoo's are not educating me. I would get more education from reading a book about them. We also have the Internet now which we can see everything and anything to educate us.
Unfortunately, I am not a person who had the means to travel, and haven't seen many zoos. I have seen some small zoos with animals in deplorable conditions. I have also been to the Bronx Zoo, which may not be that great, but some enclosures were more natural. Some, not all, Zoo's do not educate, and are just cruel.
There is good and bad in every single organization, person, zoo, etc. EVERYTHING on this good earth has good and bad in it...........even the PETA.
I swore I was not even going to read any more posts here, but I have to say one more thing.... I hope this will be it for me....It's exhausting now...
So Richard, you are saying it's educational for us to go to a Zoo and see elephants chained to a post, walking around in a small circle, with nothing else to do....lions in a cage, pacing back and forth from boredom, crocks laying in a small pool where they can hardly turn around, etc., and these animals should be sacrificed ......which aren't even teaching us anything....to save the entire ecosystems?? Do you think that people going to the zoo to see a few animals suffering are learning anything?
Those kind of zoo's are not educating me. I would get more education from reading a book about them. We also have the Internet now which we can see everything and anything to educate us.
Unfortunately, I am not a person who had the means to travel, and haven't seen many zoos. I have seen some small zoos with animals in deplorable conditions. I have also been to the Bronx Zoo, which may not be that great, but some enclosures were more natural. Some, not all, Zoo's do not educate, and are just cruel.
There is good and bad in every single organization, person, zoo, etc. EVERYTHING on this good earth has good and bad in it...........even the PETA.
terryo said:
Terryo, you quoted me , but addressed "Richard". I'll go ahead and answer, since you were talking about my post.
You list some horrid examples of animal mis-treatment in zoos, but then say that you haven't been to very many. I mean you no disrespect or unfriendliness, but that is not rational.
I HAVE been to a lot of zoos. Too many to list. All over this country and all over the world. My job takes me all over and along with pet stores and a few other controversial places, I always try to go to the local zoo. In the last few months for example, I made it to The Baton Rouge Zoo in Louisiana and The Pittsburgh Zoo. I have NEVER seen the conditions you describe in any zoo anywhere in the world. I started my traveling career in 1996, so I can't say what went on around the world prior to that.
My college curriculum in the early nineties also centered heavily on zoos and Animal Education. My college degrees are in Animal Behavior Management and Animal Education.
The point is: For at least the last 20 years zoos have been at the forefront of educating the public about the plight of animals in the wild. Zoos would be better referred to as animal conservation/education facilities.
Its so bad, its almost preachy. They've become a bit elitist in their view that you and I aren't even fit to own and care for animals. They'll tell you in no uncertain terms that animals belong in their top notch facilities or the wild, and nowhere else. It really is the opposite of what you profess.
I have no doubt that what you mentioned did take place sometime in the past, but that was back when I fed my box turtle mighty dog and kept him on kitty litter with a hot rock because that's what the REPTILE vet told me to do. We, and Zoos, know better now. BTW, seeing these healthy well-cared for animals in the zoo is what PROMPTS people to read that book you talked about.
Further, IF PETA has been responsible for something good happening to an animal, I've never heard about it. In fact, they were trying to have the beavers that my company rescued, euthanized. They actually told us that they would be better off dead than in a cage on our facility.
If a criminal helps an old lady cross the street, that doesn't make him a nice guy.
I would like to know what kind of education a child gets from going to the zoo? The only thing I think would be learned is what an animal looks like that they're never seen before. I mean they go there and see the animals and now they know what a Zebra looks like or a Giraffe, but what is really learned by that? I remember going to a few zoos as a child I didn't remember learning what was best for them or what they ate or how they really were supposed to be kept (lets say like the elephants at the LA Zoo) who actually knew that elephants need a lot more space then what the LA Zoo was providing? Well let me see, oh the LA Zoo did, but what did they do instead? Put them in too little of an area that's what they did. Now I'm not saying that zoo's are bad or good, but I'm not really sure you need to capture animals just to put them there to entertain humans. Try watching Animal Planet your children will probably learn more. What did your company do with the beavers that they rescued and why did they rescue them you never said? And for the (I can't tell how many years) PETA has also been educating people about the abuses of animals (although it might not be to your liking) that's probably why your zoos are so much better today then they were years back like you were referring to in your post. And PETA just busted the University of Utah for the abuse of animals (I don't know if you consider this good when asking to post good things that PETA has done).
Sorry about the Richard thing...was thinking of someone else.
I certainly don't have any of your accomplishments, but .....1996...or 2010, I don't like seeing any wild animal in a Zoo. I'm sorry, but that's just my opinion. I love watching National Geographic, and seeing people going out in the field, and taking pictures of wild animals where they are supposed to be......so free, and beautiful. Why can't we learn from seeing things like that? IMHO, no one can learn anything about an animal by watching it in anything other than it's natural habitat. Maybe you are missing my point...they may provide the best food, the best health care, but they are not free....they way they are supposed to be. I'm not talking about a dog or a cat, or a hamster....I'm talking about wild animals that were meant to be free, not put on a little patch of land with some trees, and a small stream, and saying this is how this animal lives in the wild....that's not how they live at all. So how can anyone possible learn from that?
Further, IF PETA has been responsible for something good happening to an animal, I've never heard about it.
Don't you think any of these accomplishments are "good"?
The following are some of PETA’s major accomplishments:
•PETA first uncovered the abuse of animals in experiments in 1981 and launched the precedent-setting “Silver Spring monkeys†case. This resulted in the first arrest and criminal conviction of an animal experimenter in the United States on charges of cruelty to animals, the first confiscation of abused laboratory animals, and the first U.S. Supreme Court victory for animals in laboratories.
•PETA released 70 hours of graphic video footage that documented the appalling treatment of primates at the University of Pennsylvania head-injury laboratory, resulting in government fines and the loss of funding for the cruel study.
•PETA’s undercover investigation of a huge contract testing laboratory in Philadelphia and our subsequent campaign led to Benetton’s permanent ban on animal testsâ€â€a first for a major cosmetics company. Other leading companies, such as Avon, Revlon, and Estée Lauder, followed suit. Gillette announced a moratorium on animal tests after PETA’s 10-year campaign. PETA now lists hundreds of companies that do not test products on animals. Please visit CaringConsumer.com for details.
•After negotiations with PETA, juice-makers POM, Welch’s, and Ocean Spray agreed to stop funding animal experiments.
•PETA was victorious over the General Motors Corporation, which ended its use of animals in crash tests.
•PETA released investigators’ photographs and videotaped footage taken inside Carolina Biological Supply Company, the nation’s largest biological supply house. PETA documented that animals were removed from gas chambers and injected with formaldehyde without being checked for vital signs, as well as cats’ and rats’ struggling during embalming and employees’ spitting on animals. The company was charged by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) with violations of the federal Animal Welfare Act (AWA).
•With the help of celebrities like Ewan McGregor and Martin Sheen; U.S., German, and Canadian government officials; and activists worldwide, PETA was able to secure the release of polar bears who had been suffering for years in the Suarez Bros. Circus. The bears are now recovering and thriving in more appropriate climates.
•PETA distributed an undercover videotape that showed Las Vegas casino “entertainer†Bobby Berosini beating orangutans with a metal rod. The U.S. Department of the Interior revoked Berosini’s captive-bred-wildlife permit, making it illegal for Berosini to buy or sell orangutans.
•An undercover investigation of painful scabies experiments on dogs and rabbits at Ohio’s Wright State University led to charges by the USDA of 18 violations of the AWA. The experiments were stopped.
•After being pressured by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine and PETA, the American College of Surgeons replaced animals with simulations at its training conferences and is now urging medical schools to adopt non-animal training alternatives.
•PETA released undercover photographs and videotapes that showed ducks’ being violently force-fed on a foie gras farm in New York, resulting in the first-ever police raid on a U.S. factory farm. After learning the gory details of foie gras production, many airlines and restaurants dropped the so-called “delicacy†from their menus.
•Undercover investigations at pig-breeding factory farms in North Carolina and Oklahoma revealed horrific conditions and daily abuse of pigs, including the fact that one pig was skinned alive, leading to the first-ever felony indictments of farm workers.
•In another precedent-setting case, a California furrier was charged with cruelty to animals after a PETA investigator filmed him electrocuting chinchillas by clipping wires to the animals’ genitals. The American Veterinary Medical Association denounced the killing method, saying that it causes animals to experience the pain of a heart attack while they are still conscious. In another undercover exposé, PETA videotaped a fur rancher’s causing minks to die in agony by injecting them with weed-killer. Both farms agreed to stop these cruel killing methods.
•After exposing the National Air and Space Administration’s Bion experiment, in which straitjacketed monkeys were to be implanted with electrodes and then launched into space, PETA succeeded in pressuring the U.S. to pull out of the project.
•PETA’s undercover investigation of a Florida exotic-animal “training school†revealed that big cats were being beaten with ax handles, which encouraged the USDA to develop new regulations governing animal training methods.
•PETA’s undercover investigation of Boys Town National Research Hospital’s experiments, in which researchers cut into kittens’ heads and starved cats in order to study deafness, spurred the National Institutes of Health to issue a report condemning Boys Town’s animal care and use program. The USDA found that Boys Town had failed to comply with the AWA.
•PETA convinced Mobil, Texaco, Pennzoil, Shell, and other oil companies to cover their exhaust stacks after showing how millions of birds and bats had become trapped in the shafts and were burned to death.
•After two years of negotiations and more than 400 demonstrations worldwide, McDonald’s became the first fast-food chain to agree to make basic welfare improvements for farmed animals. Burger King and Wendy’s followed suit within a year’s time, and within two years, Safeway, Kroger, and Albertson’s had also agreed to adopt stricter guidelines in order to improve the lives of billions of animals slaughtered for food.
•Thanks to PETA’s long campaign to push PETCO to take more responsibility for the animals in its care, the company agreed to stop selling large birds in all its stores and to make provisions for the millions of rats and mice in its care.
I've posted this before, but maybe you didn't see it. I happen to think that these are good things. Again....just my opinion.
Also....again....I don't agree with many of their policies, but I do applaud their accomplishments.
I certainly don't have any of your accomplishments, but .....1996...or 2010, I don't like seeing any wild animal in a Zoo. I'm sorry, but that's just my opinion. I love watching National Geographic, and seeing people going out in the field, and taking pictures of wild animals where they are supposed to be......so free, and beautiful. Why can't we learn from seeing things like that? IMHO, no one can learn anything about an animal by watching it in anything other than it's natural habitat. Maybe you are missing my point...they may provide the best food, the best health care, but they are not free....they way they are supposed to be. I'm not talking about a dog or a cat, or a hamster....I'm talking about wild animals that were meant to be free, not put on a little patch of land with some trees, and a small stream, and saying this is how this animal lives in the wild....that's not how they live at all. So how can anyone possible learn from that?
Further, IF PETA has been responsible for something good happening to an animal, I've never heard about it.
Don't you think any of these accomplishments are "good"?
The following are some of PETA’s major accomplishments:
•PETA first uncovered the abuse of animals in experiments in 1981 and launched the precedent-setting “Silver Spring monkeys†case. This resulted in the first arrest and criminal conviction of an animal experimenter in the United States on charges of cruelty to animals, the first confiscation of abused laboratory animals, and the first U.S. Supreme Court victory for animals in laboratories.
•PETA released 70 hours of graphic video footage that documented the appalling treatment of primates at the University of Pennsylvania head-injury laboratory, resulting in government fines and the loss of funding for the cruel study.
•PETA’s undercover investigation of a huge contract testing laboratory in Philadelphia and our subsequent campaign led to Benetton’s permanent ban on animal testsâ€â€a first for a major cosmetics company. Other leading companies, such as Avon, Revlon, and Estée Lauder, followed suit. Gillette announced a moratorium on animal tests after PETA’s 10-year campaign. PETA now lists hundreds of companies that do not test products on animals. Please visit CaringConsumer.com for details.
•After negotiations with PETA, juice-makers POM, Welch’s, and Ocean Spray agreed to stop funding animal experiments.
•PETA was victorious over the General Motors Corporation, which ended its use of animals in crash tests.
•PETA released investigators’ photographs and videotaped footage taken inside Carolina Biological Supply Company, the nation’s largest biological supply house. PETA documented that animals were removed from gas chambers and injected with formaldehyde without being checked for vital signs, as well as cats’ and rats’ struggling during embalming and employees’ spitting on animals. The company was charged by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) with violations of the federal Animal Welfare Act (AWA).
•With the help of celebrities like Ewan McGregor and Martin Sheen; U.S., German, and Canadian government officials; and activists worldwide, PETA was able to secure the release of polar bears who had been suffering for years in the Suarez Bros. Circus. The bears are now recovering and thriving in more appropriate climates.
•PETA distributed an undercover videotape that showed Las Vegas casino “entertainer†Bobby Berosini beating orangutans with a metal rod. The U.S. Department of the Interior revoked Berosini’s captive-bred-wildlife permit, making it illegal for Berosini to buy or sell orangutans.
•An undercover investigation of painful scabies experiments on dogs and rabbits at Ohio’s Wright State University led to charges by the USDA of 18 violations of the AWA. The experiments were stopped.
•After being pressured by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine and PETA, the American College of Surgeons replaced animals with simulations at its training conferences and is now urging medical schools to adopt non-animal training alternatives.
•PETA released undercover photographs and videotapes that showed ducks’ being violently force-fed on a foie gras farm in New York, resulting in the first-ever police raid on a U.S. factory farm. After learning the gory details of foie gras production, many airlines and restaurants dropped the so-called “delicacy†from their menus.
•Undercover investigations at pig-breeding factory farms in North Carolina and Oklahoma revealed horrific conditions and daily abuse of pigs, including the fact that one pig was skinned alive, leading to the first-ever felony indictments of farm workers.
•In another precedent-setting case, a California furrier was charged with cruelty to animals after a PETA investigator filmed him electrocuting chinchillas by clipping wires to the animals’ genitals. The American Veterinary Medical Association denounced the killing method, saying that it causes animals to experience the pain of a heart attack while they are still conscious. In another undercover exposé, PETA videotaped a fur rancher’s causing minks to die in agony by injecting them with weed-killer. Both farms agreed to stop these cruel killing methods.
•After exposing the National Air and Space Administration’s Bion experiment, in which straitjacketed monkeys were to be implanted with electrodes and then launched into space, PETA succeeded in pressuring the U.S. to pull out of the project.
•PETA’s undercover investigation of a Florida exotic-animal “training school†revealed that big cats were being beaten with ax handles, which encouraged the USDA to develop new regulations governing animal training methods.
•PETA’s undercover investigation of Boys Town National Research Hospital’s experiments, in which researchers cut into kittens’ heads and starved cats in order to study deafness, spurred the National Institutes of Health to issue a report condemning Boys Town’s animal care and use program. The USDA found that Boys Town had failed to comply with the AWA.
•PETA convinced Mobil, Texaco, Pennzoil, Shell, and other oil companies to cover their exhaust stacks after showing how millions of birds and bats had become trapped in the shafts and were burned to death.
•After two years of negotiations and more than 400 demonstrations worldwide, McDonald’s became the first fast-food chain to agree to make basic welfare improvements for farmed animals. Burger King and Wendy’s followed suit within a year’s time, and within two years, Safeway, Kroger, and Albertson’s had also agreed to adopt stricter guidelines in order to improve the lives of billions of animals slaughtered for food.
•Thanks to PETA’s long campaign to push PETCO to take more responsibility for the animals in its care, the company agreed to stop selling large birds in all its stores and to make provisions for the millions of rats and mice in its care.
I've posted this before, but maybe you didn't see it. I happen to think that these are good things. Again....just my opinion.
Also....again....I don't agree with many of their policies, but I do applaud their accomplishments.
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Terry, don't you have a little zoo of sorts at your place?
dmmj./... IMO there is a big difference in the animals we keep. Are you comparing a dog to a lion? An elephant to a cat? A croc to a hamster?
If you mean at my home, I live in New York Chad, I have captive bread domesticated animals. All my three dogs, by the way, are rescues from Puppy Mills.
I'm acquiring a few rescue boxies this Spring, and I will give them that little patch of land, with the stream.....but in my heart I will always wonder how their life would have been if they were born in a wooded area with lots of leaf litter and a natural stream.
There are some things we have no control over, but we can do our best in this life to help what's already done.
I'm sorry, but I really have to be done with this thread....It's just very upsetting to me. It's supposed to be about the PETA...NOT about our personal lives.....just about our opinions.
If you mean at my home, I live in New York Chad, I have captive bread domesticated animals. All my three dogs, by the way, are rescues from Puppy Mills.
I'm acquiring a few rescue boxies this Spring, and I will give them that little patch of land, with the stream.....but in my heart I will always wonder how their life would have been if they were born in a wooded area with lots of leaf litter and a natural stream.
There are some things we have no control over, but we can do our best in this life to help what's already done.
I'm sorry, but I really have to be done with this thread....It's just very upsetting to me. It's supposed to be about the PETA...NOT about our personal lives.....just about our opinions.
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