Plastron growth is concerning on Leopard Hatchling

[Allison Gray]

Update: Okay so little Ginger was taken to the exotic vet yesterday. She was given a clean bill of health! Summary: if given a choice this little one will choose the "spring mix" lettuces over any grasses, Mazuri hay pellets etc. the Dr. Said that the various lettuces contain too much proteins which causes the irregular growth, including pyramiding. Not humidity. He suggested taking away the lettuces and only offering grass, hays and more grass. The others as an occasional treat. He said the calcium treats that I make homemade out of limestone are excellent and should be available at all times to all my tortoises, they will eat it as needed only. Also he had one of those very expensive UV readers and showed the difference the T5 UVB/UVA bulb emitted (I used these) in comparison to the mercury vapor UVB /UBA bulb....there is no comparison. The t5 is useless other than emitting light in comparison. Just thought you may find this interesting. Thank you all. I'm planning to build my first indoor enclosure soon.

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but not all vets are 'up' on current tortoise info. He's just plain wrong about the food and pyramiding. It IS caused by lack of humidity. What wrong with grocery store greens is that they don't have enough fiber, but he can still eat them. You just have to add some fiber. Leopard tortoises prefer broad-leaf plants and weeds, but that's not to say they won't eat grass. My leopard tortoise yard is all grass and that's what they eat 90% of the time.

So feed your tortoise grocery store greens, but add some cut up grass and mix it all in. For sure that little baby is not going to eat hay, so don't even try to get that into the mix. Just grab your scissors and a plastic bag and go cut some grass, wash it then cut it into small pieces and mix it into the grocery store greens.

You can also offer edible weeds.

 

[Allison Gray]

I value your opinion. Although I'm positive this vet, Dr. Todd Driggers is very knowledgeable in herpitology. He is considered the best reptile vet in AZ. I know he personally has several of various types of tortoises himself. Including Leopards and Sulcatas which is what I have. Some are very old. Not any of which have any pyramiding. AZ is very much a dry heat area. My 6-7 year old had never any added humidity and she too hasn't pyramiding.
I'm certainly going to work on switching my leopards diet to resemble yours 90% grasses and weeds 10% other greens. I grown my own grass mix and do mix it but the little leopard picks through it all and eats the bigger leaved stuff.
This is my oldest and a one year old....raised without humidity being a concern here in AZ.

 

[Tom]

I value your opinion. Although I'm positive this vet, Dr. Todd Driggers is very knowledgeable in herpitology. He is considered the best reptile vet in AZ. I know he personally has several of various types of tortoises himself. Including Leopards and Sulcatas which is what I have. Some are very old. Not any of which have any pyramiding. AZ is very much a dry heat area. My 6-7 year old had never any added humidity and she too hasn't pyramiding.
I'm certainly going to work on switching my leopards diet to resemble yours 90% grasses and weeds 10% other greens. I grown my own grass mix and do mix it but the little leopard picks through it all and eats the bigger leaved stuff.
This is my oldest and a one year old....raised without humidity being a concern here in AZ.

I'm going to have to disagree. I've heard of Dr. Driggers and he is NOT the best reptile vet in AZ. This is going to be a matter of personal preference and opinion, so I won't argue that point though…

What I will argue is that he is wrong. Dead wrong. He is repeating the same old incorrect info that has been circulating for decades. It was wrong 30 years ago and its wrong today. There have been legitimate scientific studies done to prove this and I've been doing my own growth experiments for many years too. Protein has nothing to do with pyramiding and lettuce does not have much protein anyway. Further, regular leopards will sometimes eat some grass if they have nothing else, but they are more of a broadleaf weed or succulent eater in the wild and in captivity, if given the choice. South African leopards will eat grass and hay like a sulcata, but the regular leopards frequently won't eat grass at all. This matter is complicated because most "regular" leopards are actually mixes of leopards from various parts of the huge range of this species, including the grass eating South Africans.

Read these threads to get more of the story.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding-ii-the-leopards.18931/
Look at the dates on these posts. Dr. Driggers is NOT keeping up with advancing tortoise knowledge. Further: Ask him how many semesters of tortoise husbandry and tortoise nutrition there are in vet school. None is the correct answer. I could literally find you a hundred vets, breeders and "experts" that will say the same wrong stuff he is telling you. They read it out of a book decades ago, and have not learned better yet. It was wrong then and its wrong now.

In addition to you learning the correct info, I would love it if you'd invite Dr. Driggers to come here and discuss this matter too. He needs to be brought up to speed on these matters. He is in a position of authority and esteem and he is charging people money while giving them wrong info. Please please please talk this over with him. If he refuses to believe you, let me know and I will call him directly. He needs to know.

 

[Neal]

I don't agree with what he has told you about the dietary influences related to pyramiding, but I do agree with his suggestion to lean more on grasses.

I use Dr. Driggers as well, and is the only vet I would trust my tortoises with in our area. I've had discussions with him about pyramiding, and I seem to remember we discussed humidity as a contributing factor so I am a bit surprised at what he told you. It's been awhile so perhaps I am remembering it wrong.

 

[Neal]

I'm going to have to disagree. I've heard of Dr. Driggers and he is NOT the best reptile vet in AZ. This is going to be a matter of personal preference and opinion, so I won't argue that point though…

Are his comments about dietary effects on pyramiding the reason why you feel he is "not" the best vet in AZ, or do you have other information?

FYI - he has been invited to join the forum, and I'm quite sure he's a member here.