Please don't support pet stores that sell wild-caught torts!

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Cowboy_Ken

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And if my pancakes take off...wow!
I don't know. Worked for the CIA in Columbia, oh wait, that didn't work out did it?


Other than rolling smokes on the front deck, Tiffany, that's my only plan.
 

T33's Torts

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Re: RE: Please don't support pet stores that sell wild-caught torts!

Cowboy_Ken said:
And if my pancakes take off...wow!
I don't know. Worked for the CIA in Columbia, oh wait, that didn't work out did it?
Other than rolling smokes on the front deck, Tiffany, that's my only plan.

Good to know you live life to the fullest.
 

T33's Torts

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"Oh yeah!!! You're the guy that wants to sell turtle porn!"
 

laramill

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Tom,
It's fine with me if you post your photos here- but people should understand that, just as my photos of really poor pet store care does not represent ALL pet stores, neither would yours represent all importers.

I understand that there are some good importers. (I also understand there are pet stores that sell captive breed tortoises- but I was told by a PetCo district manager that their chain does not) Yvonne G seems to have first hand knowledge of both extremes of the importers, and while it's not clear, maybe even specifically of the good importer you are speaking of.

You could compare this easily to dog breeding. There are some excellent breeders out there, and there are also horrible disgusting ones as well. I think people who are made aware of the differences usually prefer to get their pet from the good breeders - not only for bigger ethical reasons, but also because they know they will probably get a better, healthier pet. The biggest difference in comparing dog breeding to tortoises is, as I understand it, unhealthy tortoises have a harder time successfully breeding than unhealthy dogs. (I am hoping this means that to breed torts successfully, they need to be receiving proper care) And of course, we don't need to be concerned about wild populations of dogs that are already facing other challenges to their survival.

I am not directing this at breeders who need wild caught tortoises in limited numbers to keep their offspring healthy. I'm not directing this at smaller, responsible importers. It was directed to people considering buying their tortoise from large chain stores, which told me they don't supply CB torts as a choice for their customers because they can't find a limited # of breeders that can supply the large numbers they need for their entire chain. Basically, they want a couple vendors who are large scale enough to supply all their product for the chain.

This is where I have a problem. That is why I was asking potential tortoise buyers to be aware of what they are supporting.

If someone got their tortoise from such a situation, I don't hold this against them. A friend of mine bought a 'chug' puppy, not thinking to look into the background of it, and only later learned it was a puppy mill puppy. I don't hold this against her or her dog. But I was happy when she told me she'd not like to find out her next dog was a mill product, and would fine-tooth comb the background next time.

So, please, feel free to post the pictures, post his name and address if you recommend him and approve of his policies and great care. I think potential tort owners SHOULD be made aware of reputable sources.

But, just from Yvonne's reply to you, it does not sound like he was the type of mass-scale importer this thread was directed toward.
 

Tom

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Yvonne G said:
Not all importers are alike, Tom. Someone like Tyler who imports on a small scale probably doesn't have the same conditions as the big importer. I used to go to SoCal and visit the big importers/wholesalers, and believe me, those tortoises were not kept in good conditions. They were piled up on top of each other and covered in feces with sick and dying tortoises all over the place.

What year (or range of years) was that? I suspect I know exactly which one(s) you visited. Did you visit West Coast Reptile when Ed Kammer owned and ran it? That one was first class all the way. I do remember who the bad ones were, and we spent not one dime in those awful places. I did spend a fair amount of time complaining about them to their managers.
 

Arnold_rules

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tffnytorts said:
"You're the guy that wants to sell turtle porn!"

Oh no....Not turtle porn. That is as bad as a kitty porn. And it doesn't just stop at turtle porn, it leads to goldfish and lizard porn, turtle is just a gateway.
 

FLINTUS

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Have been reading this and thinking whether to reply with my own personal opinion or not. I am not going to reply to the debate specifically, just state my opinion.
I do own 3 almost certainly WC animals. They are k.erosa, about 3 years in captivity, I bought them from a guy who got them from a pet shop before they stopped importing them into the UK. To find CB erosa for sale, would be very very unlikely indeed, yet alone adult CB. This is because, as far as my knowledge goes, we are barely reaching double figures with the number of successful matings and then a following successful incubation of this species in captivity worldwide. This is almost certainly the same with impressa and chersina and other species like that.
On the other hand, I own 4 CB Red Foots. This is a species with a great captive gene pool, so apart from specific locality breeding and maybe the odd big animal to add new genes, I would say that for the most part, WC ones are not needed. This goes for hermanni, graeca-in Europe both of these are prevented from wild trade due to them requiring A10s-, pardalis and the like as well.
Russians are something that interests me with regard to the situation that the keepers on this forum appear to say for the US. We have a huge number of captive bred ones in the UK and mainland Europe, more than breeders can rehome even for free. Even as adults as CB, they are not put on the market for more than about $250 max. As yearlings, they are usually about $150. So if importers are willing to import them from Asian steppe, surely they could just import the ‘unwanted’ ones from Europe? After all, it would not be much more, and I would suspect probably easier.
My overall opinion is that WCs are needed for some species, but the more ‘common’ tortoises should very rarely be imported-only for genes or locality. I guess this is kind of done with exportation quotas, but IMO they are not very well assessed.
 

laramill

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Your points are good and well taken.

Unfortunately, it seems that as some animals become common (that is, more successfully bred), they become less popular with some people. (Or is it that as more breeders rush to meet the demand, the supply suddenly balloons larger than existing demand?) I really don't know.

I hope we don't see the same thing that happened in the 90's with parrots. It was a bit of a fad to have parrots, but parrots longevity (lifespan) was greater than the fad. Some people that really didn't understand the care requirements began to give them up as the fad subsided and reality kicked in... now there are parrot reserves and rescues homing theses birds. (And please don't generalize that to to mean "all parrot owners"- lots were/are in it for the long haul and are super caretakers)

I remember long ago when the first "101 Dalmations" movie came out, suddenly that started a fad that led to an overabundance of Dalmations being bred because everyone wanted one. But there are other breeds that make better family dogs for people with children or with limited space- Soon they were in the shelters. Right now, in our area anyway, the shelters are full of pit bulls.

Some breeds may be over- collected from the wild needlessly. And it would be shameful if we somehow impacted a wild population just to, in the long run, have a captive wc over-population.


(Btw,that was regarding the post by flintus)


(...and his comments about the russian torts specifically)
 

FLINTUS

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This is how I see it:
When tortoises are bred in captivity for one of the first times, there is a lot of interest from specialist keepers-impressa, forstenii although they are becoming more common in the US by the looks of it, pyxis etc. When the breeder starts breeding more, the market expands to the more general public as now more people are breeding them and their care is being rated as 'easier'-often from offspring off the original keepers, this is where hermanni, graeca, carbonaria etc. are at the moment. Eventually the market will become over-saturated, and because they are so popular the demand goes down, leading to people struggling to re home them-Horsfields in Europe, Sulcatas in both Europe and N.America but more the latter.
When you have this last stage, I think you have a few options:
Breeding locality specific groups so specialists are interested again
Completely reduce the price and make a loss, and even then maybe not get rid of them all
Stop breeding altogether
This last one is going to cause trouble as I know some UK reptile keepers feel that the US dumps it snakes on us and stuff, but pass these animals on in large imports to countries who want them-for the US the obvious option would be Canada.
 

LABZOO

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Skymall007 said:
I see both sides of the issue. I think ideally only CB animals should be sold to the public and WC animals only sold to certified breeders who need to bring in new blood lines. I don't want to get caught in the crossfire but there seem to be misunderstandings on both sides. I didn't read the OP as trying to boycott these pet stores but rather to not spend money on certain parts of what they sell to show there is no desire for that item. I am doing a similar thing with iguanas. I always discourage people to buy iguanas from anywhere but specialized reptile stores because petco and petsmart have no business selling them (especially at the prices they do). I encourage them to sell water dragons instead but that is an entirely different topic. I am into animal welfare (not animals rights). I will also soon be finishing up my Biology degree, what I have learned from that is that humans do often disturb wild populations and we don't have enough guidelines for how many animals are taken from the wild. I think there might be a middle ground here.


Captain Picard once said "there is no justice is absolutism." This is true. Wilson may be WC and that may be against Laramill's belief system but Wilson is now in good hands and used to captivity. Placing him back into the wild would not be best either because you never put captive animals back for a number of reasons. It is not always wrong to take WC torts from the wild but often it is. It's not just one side or the other. Usually there is a middle ground. I don't believe in taking large wild cats out of the wild for zoos (I am against keeping apex predators). However, there are circumstances where exceptions must be made. For example, perhaps they have dwindling numbers in the wild and a captive breeding program is necessary. Perhaps their habitat is gone and we will lose this animal. Perhaps research needs to be done. So you see, no absolutism.



Agreed


ascott said:
No wild animal should be removed from the wild...this is my belief. None. Humans have a way of feeling entitled, owed--some crazy right to go in and disrupt an entire system of life simply because..."ooo, those are pretty, I want one"....

I believe that every turtle and every tortoise should have been left in the wild, left to live and die, in their natural place---but this is excused because people move in, rape and pillage too many spaces and then say "thank goodness people stepped in to help the "whatever animal here" survive" a terrible selfish way to think....just because humans can, does not mean we should.

I have said it before and I will say it likely again (not really with care to who agrees with me or not) I would love to have each and every CDT here in my care to have been left alone, to have been left where they were stolen from, to let life live as designed, not to be misunderstood---I love this species (and many others) and while I am blessed with their presence, it is not a humans right to steal a wild animal from their wild land...period.

Yes, some tort and turtle will end up food (hell, so will alot of other animals, cows, pigs, turkey etc) and then there are those that would not....you see, we humans have decided what goes---again our ego leads us to believe we know better, we have a right .....sickening some days actually.....

You go on with your beliefs and don't be curved by others opinions of theirs.....research and study and run with what you believe, it is not silly, it is not futile, it is not shared by a few---it is just not the popular theory, you see, if it were then people would have to come to grips with the fact that their own wants and desires should some how overpower what is right....

Agrrrrreeed!
 

LABZOO

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Tom said:
There is NOTHING wrong with removing a limited number of a species from the wild. None of us would have our pets at all if you had your way. We should not be damaging wild populations and taking too many, but bringing some in and breeding them is how we get the Captive Bred animals to in the first place. You cannot have have CB without WC coming first. It is my opinion that ANYONE who keeps any animal captive in their home or yard and then rails against the "horrors" of removing those poor little babies from their idyllic wild home, is both naive and a total hypocrite. Thinking with ones emotions seems to be all the rage these days, but it is not a good trend.

As far as housing, we have been over this many times before here on this forum. NO ONE thinks those little tanks and crowded conditions are good. But that is supposed to be a practical, TEMPORARY housing situation until they get bought and taken home to a proper living situation.

Here is what people like you don't understand. When you make this sort of emotional rant, people listen. Now 100 other people could come along and say the opposite in a sensible rational way, but for some reason they are ignored and the sensationalist point of view (yours) is the one that is addressed. You are empowering our enemies and driving the politicians to "do SOMETHING" about this horrible "problem" you speak of. The end result is, and will continue to be, ever increasing legislation and more and more big government intrusion into our daily lives.

The influx of fresh new bloodlines is a necessary and helpful part of our hobby. Yes, common sense needs to be applied, but the blanket statement that no WC should ever be bought and the stores that offer them for sale should be driven out of business is both extreme and absurd.

If you don't want people removing them from the wild to meet the demand for captive pets, it is time for you to DO something about it. Put your money where your mouth is. One could argue that keeping a single animal all alone, like you with Wilson, is selfish and its a "dead end". If Wilson is a male, then go get your two or three females, get that giant enclosure with the sight barriers built, and get busy trying to contribute to the solution rather than complain about your emotional mis-perception of the situation. Start captive breeding and producing some babies for the pet trade. Every baby you produce is one less that will need to be removed from the wild. If that sort of project is too much, then find a single female locally, and make plans to introduce them for breeding. Or just get your own single female, like the one in your pics, house her separately most of the time, but periodically introduce them for breeding. Lets make it so that only large scale breeders need the occasional new WC animals, and people like you and me (I have 20 CB russians that I bought for the sole purpose of breeding and solving the very problem we are discussing) can reduce or eliminate the demand for wild caught animals by offering a better alternative.

It is completely asinine in my opinion to try to financially ruin a business that employs tens of thousand of people, complain about a "problem" that really isn't a problem, be a contributor to the perceived problem, and be doing nothing to actually solve the perceived problem.

I want to chime in here, mostly because I can see both side. I used to work reptile store retail and give educational programs at schools etc. After I completed my zoology (minor in cog behav sci and envs) degree my views changed dramatically. I whole heartedly believe there are people out there doing their best with the animals they have, however, no one can deny the impact the exotic animal trade (legal and illegal) has on population and community dynamics, wildlife and ecosystem health and even public health. Then we get into the welfare issues. Ecology and Animal Welfare and both sciences and should be treated as such. Also, there is captive breeding programs (science) and then their is captive breeding (self aggrandizement and/or profit). As someone interested in species recovery science I am NOT opposed to captive breeding programs which use wc animals for the purpose of APPLIED CONSERVATION...hobby breeding has nothing to do with conservation in this sense.

So..

eeeek :) I would caution "NOTHING" wrong with removing a limited number. I typically do not like hearing or using such indisputable comments relating to biology or the natural world (we do not know near enough). Scientists still stuggle with maximum sustainable yeild, so how can joe-blow out in the bush collecting animals have a better understanding of what is sustainable?? And just how many joe-blows are out there?
I keep hearing this "one CB = one less WC". Someone please explain the logic behind this? You honestly think that if we have captive stock we will not need WC and harvesting will end-except by those who "need" new bloodlines? I would love some research on this bc all I have found is evidence of the opposite? It might reduced SOME wild collecting but to say captive breeding will end wild harvesting is absurd. Numerous papers abound relating to the illegal parrot trade and captive breeding - in summary, it is not working. Can you please give me the reference so I can find the peer reviewed article that states "one captive bred animal means one less wild caught" it seem fallacious. Thanks.


I think we should focus on proper husbandry and general health care so that perhaps the demand can be reduced if people could keep their animals ALIVE. These are NOT domesticated animals and should not be called "pets" by any stretch of the imagination. They should NOT be sold in pet stores unless the store has taken upon itself to train, educate and discriminate those customers who are not suitable.
ps- Your point that every exoitc can be traced back to a wc animal is very true. Sad, but true. However, does that past act justify the acts occuring today, when populations are decreasing at an alarming rate and habitat destruction threatens to halt evolution in its tracks?

Its not like it used to be...
 

ascott

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As someone interested in species recovery science I am NOT opposed to captive breeding programs which use wc animals for the purpose of APPLIED CONSERVATION...hobby breeding has nothing to do with conservation in this sense.

I typically do not like hearing or using such indisputable comments relating to biology or the natural world (we do not know near enough). Scientists still struggle with maximum sustainable yield, so how can joe-blow out in the bush collecting animals have a better understanding of what is sustainable?? And just how many joe-blows are out there?
I keep hearing this "one CB = one less WC". Someone please explain the logic behind this? You honestly think that if we have captive stock we will not need WC and harvesting will end-except by those who "need" new bloodlines? I would love some research on this bc all I have found is evidence of the opposite? It might reduced SOME wild collecting but to say captive breeding will end wild harvesting is absurd.

I think we should focus on proper husbandry and general health care so that perhaps the demand can be reduced if people could keep their animals ALIVE. These are NOT domesticated animals and should not be called "pets" by any stretch of the imagination. They should NOT be sold in pet stores unless the store has taken upon itself to train, educate and discriminate those customers who are not suitable.
ps- Your point that every exotic can be traced back to a wc animal is very true. Sad, but true. However, does that past act justify the acts occurring today, when populations are decreasing at an alarming rate and habitat destruction threatens to halt evolution in its tracks?

I have completely enjoyed your share here....thank you.
 

Saleama

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"I think we should focus on proper husbandry and general health care so that perhaps the demand can be reduced if people could keep their animals ALIVE. These are NOT domesticated animals and should not be called "pets" by any stretch of the imagination. They should NOT be sold in pet stores unless the store has taken upon itself to train, educate and discriminate those customers who are not suitable."

I enjoyed your post. Many good points. I would like to point out though, and in keeping with the topic, Pet stores are NOT selling these animals because they love them and want to see them survive and thrive in the wild or in captivity. They sell them to make a profit. That is their number one priority and thus, the glue that holds this arguement together. Profit mentality will ALWAYS lead to less than prime conditions, always. Look at some of the breeders on here. They make a profit sure, but their priority is the animals they work with. You can see it in their posts and pics of their animals, and the care given is exceptional. Petco and Petsmart are never going to provide everything a tortoise needs for long term care. It is not profitable and as stated, that is their priority. What the ones I have visited do is provide adequate care for a short time until the animal is adopted. The short coming, in my opinion, is that they pass on this short term care as the way the animal should be housed and THAT, is what I feel needs to change. So while I agree with your statement, I don't entirely agree that they should make sure an adoptive parent already has the skills to take care of the tort (I don't think any of us did with our first one) but rather make sure that the person has the resources made available to them to take care of the animal. I am happy to say that the one Russian Tort I have purchased from PetSmart was healthy and active and the associate who sold her to me offered plenty of info and pulled me aside to make sure I understood that the way the store kept them was not the way they should be kept.

It was an Arlington Texas store by the way and they had received a shippment of lizards and snakes when I was there and all the associates were over oohing and ahhing over the animals and preparing bathes and all kinds of stuff to help the little guys. I was quite impressed actually.
 

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I personally believe that when buying an exotic animal of any kind it is best not to buy from the chain stores. I buy my animals from my local reptile store where the staff is knowledgeable and very caring. In fact, the owner won't sell his animals, no matter the price, if he suspects you don't have the experience to care for them. I am also 100% certain that their animals eat better than I do. They do a lot of captive breeding there. The other place I buy from is the International Reptile Rescue. I have volunteered with both places. I think the reasons Russians are so often WC is because they don't reproduce as easily or they don't lay as many eggs? Something like that. We can never completely stop the WC trade because it is important to maintain an healthy CB population. BUT we can minimize the amount taken from the wild and we can control who has access to WC (only responsible breeders). The public should only have CB.

This may sound weird but there is a similar debate with hermit crabs. Thousands (probably more) are taken from the wild and put into the pet trade. The amount worries me because there is no way that doesn't impact their wild populations. Sure enough, in some areas they are seeing the results. Hermit crabs are VERY difficult to breed in captivity. In fact, it has only been done three times and usually by members of the Hermit Crab Association (proud member!) We want to eventually have captive breed hermits to reduce those taken from the wild.
 

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Removing an animal from the wild has the same effect on the environment as shooting it in the head with a gun. In fact, it's worse, because it leaves no carcass behind for the scavengers.
 

ascott

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Removing an animal from the wild has the same effect on the environment as shooting it in the head with a gun. In fact, it's worse, because it leaves no carcass behind for the scavengers.

Yes, stated perfectly.
 

Yvonne G

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I think this thread has gone about as far as it can go (and has been reported a couple of times), so I'm closing it. If many of you object and want it opened, PM me and I'll see about it.
 
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