Please I need advice (abscess on side of mouth)

[Haide]

I have two beautiful tortoises but one really worries me and I have a lot of questions and I can't find answers...
- Both are a bit over one year old. The bigger one has 54 grams, the smaller 28 grams... Is that ok?
- Both are having a bit of a bad smell after bathing. Is that normal? (if not bathed they do not smell)
- Both are having kind of... black tiny dots on the shell. It looks like a light powder or tiny soot? (I was worried about mold but everywhere it says that would be white?)

And now the main issue. The smaller tortoise had an abscess on her left side of mouth (outside) about 2 weeks ago. The vet got it out and now it is healing. But what got me worried is that about a week before that the tortoise lost a piece of the top jaw (the horn part probably - pardon my English, I am not sure, I know the right terms). The vet said it can happen from time to time and it should grow back. Now on the other side (where the abscess was) her top jaw (again the "horn" part) is really light color (white-ish) and I am a bit worried it would break off as well. Do you think that this could be connected to the abscess? Could it be an infection? Mold? Something?

Just fyi, I discussed this with the vet and also with the breeder I have the tortoises from. The vet said the tortoise looks healthy enough and he can't see anything wrong with her (except the abscess she got).
I live a bit far from the breeder but I sent him the pictures of the broken jaw part and he first asked me a lot of questions about the breeding conditions, making me feel like I did something wrong. He didn't find anything wrong with my way of taking care of the tortoises but said that tortoise probably doesn't have enough calcium... The vet disagreed with this statement saying that the shell is firm and he doesn't think there is an issue with calcium...

I am getting desperate, don't know what to think anymore. I would be very grateful for any explanation/advice.

PS: I can provide pictures later, tortorises are sleeping now.

 

[Yvonne G]

May I please see a picture?

 

[Haide]

Here are some pictures. I just woke her up, so she is sleepy and unhappy. The abscess should be visible (according to the vet, it should be just scrab left after the wound now and it should come off in next few days/weeks)... You can also see the color of the mouth, the missing part on the right side of the mouth and that black tiny spots I wrote about...

 

[JoesMum]

Could you also take pictures of your enclosure and lighting please? It will help us to help you

 

[Haide]

This is how I keep the turtles... (I have the wood shavings for now - been told that it is better for baby tortoises... I know there is a big debate about that though...)
For the light I don't know if you have the same in the US/UK but for UV I am using: http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/reptile_uvb150.php (13W) and then normal heating lamp... The temperature inside is about 24 °C and under the heating lamp when on it's over 30°C...

 

[JoesMum]

There is no debate about wood shavings. You have been given outdated care advice.

Wood shavings are far too dry. Young tortoises need a warm, humid environment and that cannot be provided with wood shavings.

An earthy substrate is needed that can be mixed with water until all of it is evenly damp right to the bottom and into the corners. O o coir and fine grade orchid bark are both popular. They are cheaper from a DIY store or garden centre or Amazon than from a pet store. Just make sure there are no added white bits or sand as both can cause problems if eaten.

Your UVB bulb is compact coild type that frequently causes eye problems in tortoises. You should replace it with a fluorescent tube type UVB bulb.

I recommend you read the TFO care guides and compare them with the setup and care you provide. They are written by species experts working hard to correct the outdated information widely available on the internet and from pet stores and, sadly, from some breeders and vets too.

Beginner Mistakes
https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Baby Testudo care (written about Russians but applies to Hermann's too)
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/b...or-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/

 

[Haide]

Ok, I will go through that. But as for the humidity, I do water-spray the shavings every evening so it should be humid... But I will read the forum and compare and adjust.

 

[JoesMum]

Ok, I will go through that. But as for the humidity, I do water-spray the shavings every evening so it should be humid... But I will read the forum and compare and adjust.

Spraying is not enough to raise the humidity. You need to see the care sheets

 

[Haide]

Ok, I promise I will go through that.

But still, can I please get some answers about the current state of the tortoise? I am a bit nervous now, thinking what else have I done wrong...

 

[JoesMum]

Calling @Yvonne G back to examine the photos as she runs a rescue and knows a lot about health

 

[Carol S]

Do you house the two tortoises together? If so, I think the smaller one is being bullied by the bigger one and perhaps was bitten, resulting in an abscess.

 

[Haide]

I do keep them together but I don't think this would be the case. I am not sure how to put this but you just can see they like each other. Always sleeping side by side, when I brought the small one back from the vet, the bigger one was with her all day, head to head, giving me angry looks.
If so, I think it could have been an accident. When they are running around, they step on each others head from time to time. But I haven't noticed any signs of bullying.

 

[JoesMum]

I do keep them together but I don't think this would be the case. I am not sure how to put this but you just can see they like each other. Always sleeping side by side, when I brought the small one back from the vet, the bigger one was with her all day, head to head, giving me angry looks.
If so, I think it could have been an accident. When they are running around, they step on each others head from time to time. But I haven't noticed any signs of bullying.

Sleeping side by side isn't cute. It is a sign of dominance by one tort trying to tell the other to leave. It is trying to stop the other from sleeping in that spot. They bully mentally more frequently than physically; fighting is a last resort.

When kept as pairs there is always a dominant tortoise and the subordinate one grows more slowly, fails to thrive and gets sick.

They are solitary creatures in the wild, meeting up to mate and moving on. They are very territorial. Another tortoise is a rival for food and space and no more. Groups of 3 or more may succeed in a verly large enclosure with plenty of sight barriers, but there are no guarantees. This tortoise is already sick and they must be separated on a permanent basis.

Read this:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/w...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/

 

[Haide]

Ok, again, not sure about that. Usually the big one goes to sleep earlier and the small one is then going after her. And again the breeder told me the exact opposite, that the one tortoise would get lonely... I get the point but I still don't think this is the main reason why the smaller one is unwell...

 

[JoesMum]

Ok, again, not sure about that. Usually the big one goes to sleep earlier and the small one is then going after her. And again the breeder told me the exact opposite, that the one tortoise would get lonely... I get the point but I still don't think this is the main reason why the smaller one is unwell...

Stress, which can be caused by bullying, is a huge cause of illness.

The enclosure needs work. Again less than ideal living conditions cause stress which cause illness.

They definitely don’t get lonely that’s plain wrong. The breeder gave you outdated care information. Follow the guidance given to you on separation and getting the enclosures right and your torts will be less stressed and health will hopefully improve.

 

[TechnoCheese]

Ok, again, not sure about that. Usually the big one goes to sleep earlier and the small one is then going after her. And again the breeder told me the exact opposite, that the one tortoise would get lonely... I get the point but I still don't think this is the main reason why the smaller one is unwell...

Sadly, JoesMum is right. Tortoises do not get lonely, cannot make friends, and are highly territorial. Them “cuddling” is one tortoise trying to stress the other tortoise out of its territory. Just seeing another tortoise is extremely stressful for them, and they need to be separated. The breeder probably just told you that to get you to but another one, or they’re just really misinformed.

 

[jsheffield]

What are suggested treatments for the abscess?

Jamie

 

[JoesMum]

1. Separate
2. Antiseptic cream will clear up minor infection and prevent reinfection of open wounds
3. If it’s badly infected it will probably need antibiotic ointment or a course of antibiotic shots.
4. Get the enclosures setup right

 

[Haide]

As I wrote before - the abscess was taken care of and looked after by the vet - I've got the antiseptic for it from him and that part is healing nicely (I would say)... I asked about other things I am worried about and I do appreciate all the information about the change of the setup and separation but it is not giving me the answers I needed. Why the part of the mouth broke off? Why is it having weird color on the other side? Is that calcium insufficiency? Rot? What about the tiny black spots on the shell?

 

[Cheryl Hills]

I don’t see anything unusual about the shell, what tiny black spots? The black I see is normal. As for the beak, I don’t know, someone with more knowledge will have to address that.