Plywood only as substrate - (and how to clean?)

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ben awes

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Hi all, I've been searching and reading about ways that folks clean their enclosures. Lots of good information however I have found no one that uses just a plywood floor for their enclosure. I have just a plywood floor for my two large Leopards. They are 10 years and 7 years old and the plywood floor has worked great. When my first one was a hatchling I tried a few different things on top of the enclosure - pellets, cyrprus, dirt/sand. The pellets get wet, clump and mold, the cyprus is expensive and not feasible for a 70sf enclosure, and the dirt/sand would dry out so fast and then dust everything in site because leopards are pacers and walk the edge all day. I live in Minnesota so my torts are inside most of the time and the dust would cover everything in my house no matter how ofter I would set the substrate. In fact, almost anythings turns to dust under their feet, including hay.

I went to just plywood and that has worked out great. The trouble is how do you clean your plywood? I have never wanted to seal it because I don't want anything toxic near them. Any sealer would be worn off by them as well. I have read a lot about how people clean their enclosures but none of them have plywood floors. My concern is cleaner residue being absorbed into the wood. I clean the floor VERY infrequently and have never had any issues, torts are healthy, no bugs, no smells, no mold, no nothing, but it does absorb pee and poo moisture. This stuff drys fast in the heat, but should be cleaned now and again.

Does anyone else use just plywood?

What do you do/use to clean and how often?

Thanks so much.

Ben
 

GBtortoises

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Plywood, or any non-toxic wood is fine as a base, but not good as the substrate. The wood should always be sealed with some type of durable finish. Unsealed wood exposes the pores to moisture, mold, fungus and bacteria. Using a flat slippery surface alone as a substrate will usually cause improper muscle development in a tortoises legs, particularly the rear legs. It will also be too dry, even for arid species such as Leopards.
 

ben awes

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GBtortoises said:
Plywood, or any non-toxic wood is fine as a base, but not good as the substrate. The wood should always be sealed with some type of durable finish. Unsealed wood exposes the pores to moisture, mold, fungus and bacteria. Using a flat slippery surface alone as a substrate will usually cause improper muscle development in a tortoises legs, particularly the rear legs. It will also be too dry, even for arid species such as Leopards.

I hesitated creating this thread in the first place because I thought someone would just tell me I'm wrong without wondering if maybe I'm not based on the success I have had. Sure enough the first reply is "you're wrong". How do you know it's not good as a substrate? Have you used it as such and had bacteria problems that caused illness in your torts? I guess 10 years of no mold or fungus, and healthy torts that breed indoors, is not evidence that maybe it's not so bad. I also wonder about bacteria, and remain concerned about it, but after so many years of no shell rot, almost no sickness ever, maybe the bacteria issue is not such a concern. If it was, then why aren't my torts sick? The only illness i have ever had is runny nose twice in 10 years which was attributed to the overall temp being too low.

I made some wood cutting boards a ways back and in doing research for that I read from numerous cutting board companies that wood cutting boards are better than plastic because wood is more naturally bacteria resistant. That does not mean it does not have to be cleaned, but why would this not apply to a substrate?

Anyone else out there using plywood and do how do you clean it.
 

GBtortoises

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I know it's not a good substrate because for many years I have seen tortoises that were raised on bare wood and/or newspaper, same thing, smooth flat surface. On a smooth flat surface their rear legs in particular slip when they walk. Because of this, over time they begin walking on the inside of their legs, not the bottom of their feet. This is especially evident in large adult tortoises that require footing to propel their larger, heavier bodies.
And yes, I have used newspaper, many, many years ago before people were better informed. I created those same leg problems in some tortoises that I described. No, I have not had mold or bacterial problems with my tortoises in the 30+ years that I have been keeping, raising and breeding them. Part of the reason that I have not is because I ensure that all wood surfaces are properly sealed. While I have not personally had those problems myself I have been a carpenter and woodworker my entire life working with various species of woods both indoors and outdoors in a very wet and cool environment. I do know a little something about the effectives of moisture on wood.
Your tortoises haven't had a problem being kept on bare plywood-lucky you. You're obviously a gambler, I am not.

You should check your research on the use of wood cutting boards because your information isn't accurate at all. Most states now prohibit the use of wood cutting surfaces in the restaurant industry because it does harbor bacteria and cannot be cleaned or sanitized well enough to meet health codes. The primary reason-bare wood is porous, plastics and solid surface materials (Corian, etc...) are not.
 

Merlin M

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GBtortoises said:
I know it's not a good substrate because for many years I have seen tortoises that were raised on bare wood and/or newspaper, same thing, smooth flat surface. On a smooth flat surface their rear legs in particular slip when they walk. Because of this, over time they begin walking on the inside of their legs, not the bottom of their feet. This is especially evident in large adult tortoises that require footing to propel their larger, heavier bodies.
And yes, I have used newspaper, many, many years ago before people were better informed. I created those same leg problems in some tortoises that I described. No, I have not had mold or bacterial problems with my tortoises in the 30+ years that I have been keeping, raising and breeding them. Part of the reason that I have not is because I ensure that all wood surfaces are properly sealed. While I have not personally had those problems myself I have been a carpenter and woodworker my entire life working with various species of woods both indoors and outdoors in a very wet and cool environment. I do know a little something about the effectives of moisture on wood.
Your tortoises haven't had a problem being kept on bare plywood-lucky you. You're obviously a gambler, I am not.

You should check your research on the use of wood cutting boards because your information isn't accurate at all. Most states now prohibit the use of wood cutting surfaces in the restaurant industry because it does harbor bacteria and cannot be cleaned or sanitized well enough to meet health codes. The primary reason-bare wood is porous, plastics and solid surface materials (Corian, etc...) are not.

I can't help but agree... watching tortoises walk on soil and hard surfaces, they just don't get the same grip on hard surfaces.

Also the idea that wood harbours less bacteria than plastic ect it laughable (sorry) as wood is inherantly porous unless sealed! Plastics are not. Just because something is natural does not always mean its best!

I would think using a reptile safe disinfectant would be the best to sanitise it, but I would consider sealing it (and also using substrate like top soil, yeah its more work to keep damp but not too bad, I wet and turn it every few days, but its worth it, it also means I can plant food live in the soil for them to snack on!
 

ben awes

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Merlin M said:
GBtortoises said:
I know it's not a good substrate because for many years I have seen tortoises that were raised on bare wood and/or newspaper, same thing, smooth flat surface. On a smooth flat surface their rear legs in particular slip when they walk. Because of this, over time they begin walking on the inside of their legs, not the bottom of their feet. This is especially evident in large adult tortoises that require footing to propel their larger, heavier bodies.
And yes, I have used newspaper, many, many years ago before people were better informed. I created those same leg problems in some tortoises that I described. No, I have not had mold or bacterial problems with my tortoises in the 30+ years that I have been keeping, raising and breeding them. Part of the reason that I have not is because I ensure that all wood surfaces are properly sealed. While I have not personally had those problems myself I have been a carpenter and woodworker my entire life working with various species of woods both indoors and outdoors in a very wet and cool environment. I do know a little something about the effectives of moisture on wood.
Your tortoises haven't had a problem being kept on bare plywood-lucky you. You're obviously a gambler, I am not.

You should check your research on the use of wood cutting boards because your information isn't accurate at all. Most states now prohibit the use of wood cutting surfaces in the restaurant industry because it does harbor bacteria and cannot be cleaned or sanitized well enough to meet health codes. The primary reason-bare wood is porous, plastics and solid surface materials (Corian, etc...) are not.

I can't help but agree... watching tortoises walk on soil and hard surfaces, they just don't get the same grip on hard surfaces.

Also the idea that wood harbours less bacteria than plastic ect it laughable (sorry) as wood is inherantly porous unless sealed! Plastics are not. Just because something is natural does not always mean its best!

I would think using a reptile safe disinfectant would be the best to sanitise it, but I would consider sealing it (and also using substrate like top soil, yeah its more work to keep damp but not too bad, I wet and turn it every few days, but its worth it, it also means I can plant food live in the soil for them to snack on!

Just because wood is porous does not mean it "must" harbor more bacteria. Wood is organic and as such has complex properties that plastic cannot have. Certainly NOT laughable. These types of comments are why I hesitate to even engage. Often I find this forum arrogant and snotty. It is often not a safe place to engage in the sharing of information because people rip each other.

tortoises get outstanding grip on plywood. They do no slip at all. They would slip if the wood was sealed.

You can't turn the top soil in an entire room every few days, nor keep it damp.


GBtortoises said:
I know it's not a good substrate because for many years I have seen tortoises that were raised on bare wood and/or newspaper, same thing, smooth flat surface. On a smooth flat surface their rear legs in particular slip when they walk. Because of this, over time they begin walking on the inside of their legs, not the bottom of their feet. This is especially evident in large adult tortoises that require footing to propel their larger, heavier bodies.
And yes, I have used newspaper, many, many years ago before people were better informed. I created those same leg problems in some tortoises that I described. No, I have not had mold or bacterial problems with my tortoises in the 30+ years that I have been keeping, raising and breeding them. Part of the reason that I have not is because I ensure that all wood surfaces are properly sealed. While I have not personally had those problems myself I have been a carpenter and woodworker my entire life working with various species of woods both indoors and outdoors in a very wet and cool environment. I do know a little something about the effectives of moisture on wood.
Your tortoises haven't had a problem being kept on bare plywood-lucky you. You're obviously a gambler, I am not.

You should check your research on the use of wood cutting boards because your information isn't accurate at all. Most states now prohibit the use of wood cutting surfaces in the restaurant industry because it does harbor bacteria and cannot be cleaned or sanitized well enough to meet health codes. The primary reason-bare wood is porous, plastics and solid surface materials (Corian, etc...) are not.

It's not gambling if it has worked without problem for 10 years. My torts do not slip on the plywood, but most certainly wood if it were sealed. Newspaper would be a terrible solution because of slipping and is not comparable to bare plywood. I don't need to check my research. I know what I have found. Western medicine also does not believe in homeopathic medicine - does not mean they are right. I have worked with wood for 30 years as well. If you have had bacteria problems, mold, fungus - great, let me hear it, but if not, then why not simply address your concern without telling me I'm wrong - you suspect a problem but have not experienced it yourself.
 

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Ben, I would think that if you just scrape the dried surface regularly, that's the best you can expect. That's what I do to my outside hide (doghouse). If you get a big wet dry shop vac, it should keep down any dust from the scraping.
 

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I would use a Clorhexidine water mix if you must clean it, then use a heater and fan in the room to dry it quickly.
 

lkwagner

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My indoor enclosure for my sulcata had a plywood base and I took a tarp and stapled it with a staple gun around the exclusive to seal it. But then I did fill it with cypress mulch
 

ben awes

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yagyujubei said:
Ben, I would think that if you just scrape the dried surface regularly, that's the best you can expect. That's what I do to my outside hide (doghouse). If you get a big wet dry shop vac, it should keep down any dust from the scraping.

Hello, and thanks for the response. What you describe is exactly what I do. I pick up everything daily, scrap couple times a week actually and then shop vac it once a month. Seems to have worked well. I have cleaned it before with mild soap and water - just looking for a better cleaner that and more regular cleaning schedule. I am always considering a different substrate on top of the plywood, but every option seems to significant pros and cons. Sand would be awesome if it could just be packed sand, little to no dust. Dirt has just be a dust disaster with my large leopards. Cyprus? maybe.


SulcataSquirt said:
I would use a Clorhexidine water mix if you must clean it, then use a heater and fan in the room to dry it quickly.

Thanks, I'm not aware of clorhexidine - I will check that out. I don't HAVE to clean it, I just think I should on occasion, but I don't know that for sure.


lkwagner said:
My indoor enclosure for my sulcata had a plywood base and I took a tarp and stapled it with a staple gun around the exclusive to seal it. But then I did fill it with cypress mulch

Thanks, I am considering the mulch, but that seems so uneven and not great to walk on all the time.
 

yagyujubei

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I'm sure I am in the minority here, but I'm not a fan of cypress mulch. It is effective to some degree as dust control, since any dust would work it's way down into the mulch. I really don't like the sharp, splinter-like aspect of it. Gets in food and eyes. Bark mulch is smoother, but harder to walk 0n. In my basement pen, I just use dirt, but it's also not without it's problems, and gets very dusty no matter how much it dampened. I will cover the substrate with dry leaves in the fall, with will disappear soon enough, but I don't really want a flammable surface in there, just in case.
 

mikeh

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Bare plywood is far from slippery surface, its rough and provides adequate traction. Torts don't slip on bare plywood at all. For feet development it may be questionable.

It can be cleaned with properly diluted iodine solution. I desinfect all my tables with it. It will kill all bacteria. Its safe for torts. When my box turtles were treated for ear abscess, my vet who I fully trust, said I can even soak them in properly diluted iodine solution. I have and they are still here all healthy.

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Personally I don't use plastic cutting boards. They get cut by knife creating tight tiny cuts where bacteria can lodge. And because plastic is not porous the inside of the cuts doesn't dry as well as wood possibly holding more bacteria.

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Yvonne G

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I also use plywood as a base, however, I have rubber mats over the plywood. The feed stores sell thick rubber mats for use in horse stalls. I didn't want to use the wood by itself because it gets slippery when wet. The rubber mat gives lots of traction.
 

Merlin M

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You are right about plastic chopping boards, they need to be replaced regularly!

I bleach my wooden one every now and again which prolongs its life, but would not be good for tortoises!
 

lisa127

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Can you cover the floor with interlocking foam or rubber tiles used in workout rooms, playrooms, etc? That's what I thought of right away and Yvonne seems to have the same idea. Those can be pulled up, disinfected, and put back down.
 

mikeh

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Re: RE: Plywood only as substrate - (and how to clean?)

Merlin M said:
You are right about plastic chopping boards, they need to be replaced regularly!

I bleach my wooden one every now and again which prolongs its life, but would not be good for tortoises!

Cutting into the plastic board eventually cuts tiny pieces off which get mixed with food. I much rather ingest wood then plastic. Sorry to get off the subject.

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Yvonne G

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I may be courting trouble, but I've never worried about disinfecting any flooring in my habitats. When I built the sheds, I canted the floors so they tilted slightly towards the doorway. I sweep with a broom, pick up any poop, then I just hose it all out.

Since your pens are in the house, the hose doesn't seem to be an option. So why can't you just mop it out like you would the kitchen floor? Mr. Clean does a great job. And if you rinse it well, I doubt there would be any residuals to bother the tortoises. Or, just use plain water.
 

yagyujubei

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I like this idea Yvonne, can you elaborate as to type, thickness, perforations etc...soft or hard?
Yvonne G said:
I also use plywood as a base, however, I have rubber mats over the plywood. The feed stores sell thick rubber mats for use in horse stalls. I didn't want to use the wood by itself because it gets slippery when wet. The rubber mat gives lots of traction.
 

Yvonne G

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The mats are 4'x6' and are too heavy for me to lift. I have to roll them up and tie the roll, then manhandle them to where I want them. They are an inch thick and very heavy-duty rubber. I have cut them before using a skil saw, and they are so dense that it bogs down the saw and makes it smoke.

I'll go outside and get a picture a bit later in the day. I'm still on my first cup of coffee.
 

ben awes

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Yvonne G said:
The mats are 4'x6' and are too heavy for me to lift. I have to roll them up and tie the roll, then manhandle them to where I want them. They are an inch thick and very heavy-duty rubber. I have cut them before using a skil saw, and they are so dense that it bogs down the saw and makes it smoke.

I'll go outside and get a picture a bit later in the day. I'm still on my first cup of coffee.

Yvonne, this is great. I would love to know more about your mats - brand, cost? Any downside? And can't wait to see a photo!

Ben
 
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