Possible respiratory infection and housing query

KLA

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Greetings All,
Thanks to everyone that's been posting amazing threads on building outdoor night homes (especially Tom) as that will be my next endeavor.

I've got a sulcata that's approximately 2-3 years old. Possibly. He's a rescue (aka someone handed him to me a year ago in a feed store while I was getting chicken mash bc he was too big for the apartment). He lives in Los Angeles with me and free roams the large backyard where I've grown him all sorts of grasses and treats and he currently is about 16" long and 20 lbs. He seems happy enough and spends his time eating all day, pooping every 1-2 days, and searching his world for chicken craps to eat. Currently he sleeps in an uninsulated covered shack I made him out of plywood with about 10 inches of dirt to dig into and a small cat bungalow type heater pad on one side. Needless to say, I followed the advice of the Ojai Sulcata rescue page and let him ferment his own poop dirt pile (like the chickens) and completely missed the boat on needing significant night time heat. Will be working on fixing that over the next month and I do have a question about how small an enclosure one can put one of the radiant oil heaters and how tight a fit in can be in the 'box' enclosure it sits in. The tort isn't huge yet and I'm a renter, so if I could cover the next two to three years before I move again, that would be great.

Max, the tort, well he has always had some mildly raspy breathing. Not the hissing pissed off 'I want to eat your toes' sound but just a bit of a wheeze. No discharge, no cough, nor bubbles, etc. etc. and like I said, he grazes all day until dusk every day, rain or shine and would literally walk to San Francisco if given the ability to escape. He's gained about 10 lbs and at least 6 inches since I got him last year and the mild pyramiding he came with hasn't gotten at all worse and may be looking better. Is that a respiratory infection? Wouldn't he seem actually sick if it was? What's the best way to treat him and what to treat him with?

Thank you so much, in advance.
 

wellington

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I would heat a hide box to 80-85 and lock him in at night. I also would not let him eat chicken poop, not good for him. I also would clean out the poop bed you read someplace and give him some nice fertilizer and pesticide free dirt or orchard bark to sleep on and keep his quarters clean. The noise is hard to say if normal as can't hear it. However, if he is acting fine, all things normal, it's probably normal for him.
The box just needs to be large enough for your tort to move and turn around in and to be able to get away from where the heater is placed. If you want to make the box once, then follow Toms measurements for his night boxes
 

KLA

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Thank you! I'll try heating him up more at night and try to keep him away from chicken poop. The later will be easier still need to insulate a box for him.
 

Big Charlie

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I had never heard of the recommendation to let them live in their own poop. I had to go to their web page to read it to believe it. I clean Charlie's night box everyday. When we went away for a weekend, I felt guilty that his house didn't get cleaned for 2 days! I don't think that in the wild, they would choose to sleep right in the poop. They may not mind it much but I don't think they would do it by choice. When Charlie had his last burrow, it was dug down to a low point, then it turned and came up a little bit before continuing on. All the poop ended up in the low point, and Charlie slept in the higher part. I don't think this was by accident.

Charlie has no trouble settling down for the night. Once he is in, he stays where he is until early in the morning when he starts to turn around in preparation for coming back out. He hasn't dug a burrow in the last two years, ever since I built his heated night box. I think he doesn't feel the need for a burrow because his needs are being met.
 
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i read that Ojai project too.... just because i click on website link.. then another.. then another... its never-ending :)...... sorry but that 'Ojai project' should be removed.... as a newbie i was so confused when i read that and then found this Forum.... yikes!!! hopefully others do what i did... accidently read the Ojai thing... then clicked another link and found the Wonder World of TortoiseForum!!!!
 
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Yvonne G

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You might check his nares to make sure they're not plugged with food or dirt. That might be one cause for the wheezing sound you're hearing.
 

Tom

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For a single smaller tortoise like yours, a 4x4' box would work perfectly. I use the radiant heat panel/Kane heat mat combo in those mainly to save floor space, but you could use the radiant oil heater in one of those too. As he grows, you might choose to switch, so he'll have more room.

Also, don't make your door the correct size to fit him now. Make it big enough to fit him in 5 years. I had to learn that one the hard way…

In case you haven't seen these already, here are examples of both set-ups:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/

I think you will see a big improvement in overall appetite, activity, health and growth once you make this switch. I used to keep mine too cold in winter and at night and they survived, but when I started keeping them at the correct temperatures, they all started thriving vs. just surviving. The difference was surprising to me, as I thought I was doing a pretty good job.

Some of them do make noise while breathing. Its something to keep an eye on and look for other symptoms too.
 

KLA

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I had never heard of the recommendation to let them live in their own poop. I had to go to their web page to read it to believe it. I clean Charlie's night box everyday. When we went away for a weekend, I felt guilty that his house didn't get cleaned for 2 days! I don't think that in the wild, they would choose to sleep right in the poop. They may not mind it much but I don't think they would do it by choice. When Charlie had his last burrow, it was dug down to a low point, then it turned and came up a little bit before continuing on. All the poop ended up in the low point, and Charlie slept in the higher part. I don't think this was by accident.

Charlie has no trouble settling down for the night. Once he is in, he stays where he is until early in the morning when he starts to turn around in preparation for coming back out. He hasn't dug a burrow in the last two years, ever since I built his heated night box. I think he doesn't feel the need for a burrow because his needs are being met.

Yeah, when I was handed Max, having only ever raised (quite large) snakes indoors, I had no idea what I was getting into and when I googled 'rescue' and found Ojai's site it made intuitive (if completely wrong) sense. Chickens are 'deep bedded' and it's healthy for them and does help keep the heat up on cooler nights. Not so much for a creature that doesn't produce its own heat. In retrospect, pretty stupid of me. Thanks so much for the advice.
 

KLA

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You might check his nares to make sure they're not plugged with food or dirt. That might be one cause for the wheezing sound you're hearing.
Okay, I've googled. Am I supposed to flush them with spray saline or just look at them (from the outside they appear fine). Thanks so much.
 

KLA

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For a single smaller tortoise like yours, a 4x4' box would work perfectly. I use the radiant heat panel/Kane heat mat combo in those mainly to save floor space, but you could use the radiant oil heater in one of those too. As he grows, you might choose to switch, so he'll have more room.

Also, don't make your door the correct size to fit him now. Make it big enough to fit him in 5 years. I had to learn that one the hard way…

In case you haven't seen these already, here are examples of both set-ups:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/

I think you will see a big improvement in overall appetite, activity, health and growth once you make this switch. I used to keep mine too cold in winter and at night and they survived, but when I started keeping them at the correct temperatures, they all started thriving vs. just surviving. The difference was surprising to me, as I thought I was doing a pretty good job.

Some of them do make noise while breathing. Its something to keep an eye on and look for other symptoms too.

Thank you so much for the safe advice and measurements. If I decide to use a radiant oil heater in a 4x4 how tall does it have to be in order to not be a fire hazard and how many inches between the heater and the wood panels around it? Is it possible to just use the heater's own thermostat for heat regulation with a couple of cheaper probes hanging about or do I really need to invest in one of those reptile type mucho expensive regulator thermostats?

Thanks so much, Tom. Your tortoise houses are amazing (if intimidating to build!).
 

Tom

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Thank you so much for the safe advice and measurements. If I decide to use a radiant oil heater in a 4x4 how tall does it have to be in order to not be a fire hazard and how many inches between the heater and the wood panels around it? Is it possible to just use the heater's own thermostat for heat regulation with a couple of cheaper probes hanging about or do I really need to invest in one of those reptile type mucho expensive regulator thermostats?

Thanks so much, Tom. Your tortoise houses are amazing (if intimidating to build!).

Use the mini oil heaters:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MXEDAV...t=&hvlocphy=9031165&hvtargid=pla-274813158138
https://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/st...e=&network=g&gclid=COm3hdmGz9MCFQmKaQod7zUCVQ

3-4 inches on the sides and 6-8 inches over the top should be enough to make it safe. I've seen them misused and in direct contact with the wood, and no disaster happened. I wouldn't recommend that though…

The built-in thermostat on the heater will allow for 20-30 degree temperature swings. Not good. Get one of these $30 models to control it instead. This will reduce the temperature swings to 3-4 degrees in a well insulated box.
https://www.lllreptile.com/products/13883-zilla-1000-watt-temperature-controller
https://www.hydrofarm.com/p/MTPRTC
 
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KLA

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For a single smaller tortoise like yours, a 4x4' box would work perfectly. I use the radiant heat panel/Kane heat mat combo in those mainly to save floor space, but you could use the radiant oil heater in one of those too. As he grows, you might choose to switch, so he'll have more room.

Also, don't make your door the correct size to fit him now. Make it big enough to fit him in 5 years. I had to learn that one the hard way…

In case you haven't seen these already, here are examples of both set-ups:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/

I think you will see a big improvement in overall appetite, activity, health and growth once you make this switch. I used to keep mine too cold in winter and at night and they survived, but when I started keeping them at the correct temperatures, they all started thriving vs. just surviving. The difference was surprising to me, as I thought I was doing a pretty good job.

Some of them do make noise while breathing. Its something to keep an eye on and look for other symptoms too.

Thank you again Tom and so sorry to bother. I procured the radiant oil heater and thermostat you recommended. Now I'm up to getting wood. As I'm planning a 4x4 box 2 ft tall I'm wondering how you get the overhang for rain run off on the top as the sheets of plywood I'm looking at are all 4 ft wide. Also, are you framing the whole thing in 2x4? Sorry for the super simplistic query, I built my coop years ago but never something not gigantic and never something I had to insulate so it seems a bit overwhelming. Thanks
 

Tom

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Thank you again Tom and so sorry to bother. I procured the radiant oil heater and thermostat you recommended. Now I'm up to getting wood. As I'm planning a 4x4 box 2 ft tall I'm wondering how you get the overhang for rain run off on the top as the sheets of plywood I'm looking at are all 4 ft wide. Also, are you framing the whole thing in 2x4? Sorry for the super simplistic query, I built my coop years ago but never something not gigantic and never something I had to insulate so it seems a bit overwhelming. Thanks

I build the top out of a 4x4' sheet of plywood, then I make the box to fit inside of that. By the time you account for the space for the lid to fit over the box and the walls, the inside dimension are closer to 39x39".

I use 2x2 to frame the lid to save weight. Then I use 2x3s or 2x4s to frame the rest of the box.

Here are a couple more threads that might shed some light on the building technicalities:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...g-of-toms-night-box-with-exploded-view.97697/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/
 

KLA

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Thank you so much! This makes everything perfectly clear!
 

KLA

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Hi All,

So recently I built the bigger night house for Max (who was very unhelpful as he had been hiding nests of black widows under his old one AND tried to eat the sheets of insulation before they went in :). I didn’t end up insulating the whole thing because I’m just not that coordinated. So I made it out of 1” plywood and insulated the floor and roof. I also used the thermostat and oil heater listed here (thanks so much). I have a question though, what setting should the oil heater be left on bc the thermostat is set for 80 but I dropped a digit thermometer inside and it’s reading 74 about 8” from the top on the side next to the heater (not heater side). I have the heater set at about 1/2 way mark.

Thanks so much!
 

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Hugo's Home

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I set my heater (same one) about 80% on high. my thermostat ( same one) is set just below 80 to keep the box around 80. You probably have to raise your thermostat to achieve the magic 80 temp.

Also since you didn't insulate the sides. I kinda had the same problem with my box and not being coordinated. And lazy..
so what I did was I used liquid nail to glue the Styrofoam on the sides. Then screwed plywood on. Made a sandwich instead of building a frame to hold the foam. Then made the top to fit..same way. so you might have to insulate the sides and make a new lid if your temps aren't holding and your using a ton of electricity.. But in LA you'll probably be good with your setup.

All in all just adjust your thermostat and the heater a bit and check temps and see how it goes. I'm sure you'll be alright!

Hi All,

So recently I built the bigger night house for Max (who was very unhelpful as he had been hiding nests of black widows under his old one AND tried to eat the sheets of insulation before they went in :). I didn’t end up insulating the whole thing because I’m just not that coordinated. So I made it out of 1” plywood and insulated the floor and roof. I also used the thermostat and oil heater listed here (thanks so much). I have a question though, what setting should the oil heater be left on bc the thermostat is set for 80 but I dropped a digit thermometer inside and it’s reading 74 about 8” from the top on the side next to the heater (not heater side). I have the heater set at about 1/2 way mark.

Thanks so much!
 
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KLA

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I set my heater (same one) about 80% on high. my thermostat ( same one) is set just below 80 to keep the box around 80. You probably have to raise your thermostat to achieve the magic 80 temp.

Also since you didn't insulate the sides. I kinda had the same problem with my box and not being coordinated. And lazy..
so what I did was I used liquid nail to glue the Styrofoam on the sides. Then screwed plywood on. Made a sandwich instead of building a frame to hold the foam. Then made the top to fit..same way. so you might have to insulate the sides and make a new lid if your temps aren't holding and your using a ton of electricity.. But in LA you'll probably be good with your setup.

All in all just adjust your thermostat and the heater a bit and check temps and see how it goes. I'm sure you'll be alright!
Thanks so much for the advice and the creative fix for the insulation! Lol I’m so visual-spatial handicapped that even with measuring it out in my head AND using the super detailed blow up picture with measurements my box still had to be recut just to fit together bc I never seen to take into correct account the width of any wood I’m using :) I put the box right against the house and the back steps are against one side so I’m hoping that helps a bit.

Also quick question - the wood frame my heater is inside is 7.5 inches (Max is an Olympic climber). Is that too high? Do you think it will get too hot? I drilled a bunch of holes in it and considered hardware cloth but am afraid he will rub his nose off...)

Thanks again!
 

Hugo's Home

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Mine is 10 inches high holding in the heater, cement blocks (more thermal mass) and a water dish to help with humidity.
I made mine 10 since I put a lot of hay on the concrete floor. Didn't drill holes since i thought the hay would get into the heater area. Hugo doesn't like to climb though and it doesn't get hot really. Maybe make a lip hanging over the edge of the heater boarder just incase he tries to climb. Hugo doesn't rub his nose on anything besides food lol. Not sure about the hardware cloth it might burn/ melt next to the heater I doubt it would but maybe. I would just stick with the wood since we know that won't self ignite until it reaches around 400 degrees. ( little white thing is a remote temp monitor so I don't have to go outside and check temps.)
20171108_170846.jpg

Thanks so much for the advice and the creative fix for the insulation! Lol I’m so visual-spatial handicapped that even with measuring it out in my head AND using the super detailed blow up picture with measurements my box still had to be recut just to fit together bc I never seen to take into correct account the width of any wood I’m using :) I put the box right against the house and the back steps are against one side so I’m hoping that helps a bit.

Also quick question - the wood frame my heater is inside is 7.5 inches (Max is an Olympic climber). Is that too high? Do you think it will get too hot? I drilled a bunch of holes in it and considered hardware cloth but am afraid he will rub his nose off...)

Thanks again!
 

KLA

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Mine is 10 inches high holding in the heater, cement blocks (more thermal mass) and a water dish to help with humidity.
I made mine 10 since I put a lot of hay on the concrete floor. Didn't drill holes since i thought the hay would get into the heater area. Hugo doesn't like to climb though and it doesn't get hot really. Maybe make a lip hanging over the edge of the heater boarder just incase he tries to climb. Hugo doesn't rub his nose on anything besides food lol. Not sure about the hardware cloth it might burn/ melt next to the heater I doubt it would but maybe. I would just stick with the wood since we know that won't self ignite until it reaches around 400 degrees. ( little white thing is a remote temp monitor so I don't have to go outside and check temps.)
View attachment 222736
Brilliant! And I love the cement blocks! If you don’t mind me asking, what’s the length of your heater enclosure?

Also I can see from your photo that I’ve got my thermostat waaaay too close to my heater, which could be part of my problem.

Hugo is very pretty!
 
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