Preparing Shelby for his first Hibernation

[Tracy Gould]

Hi I checked his weight he is in the 20 mark on the ratio and as been checked over an is in good health, I am pretty nervous but fell it is better for their health if i let him hybernate so as from today i have started winding him down. He as had is soak and pooped he is not impressed because i have not fed him so he as took himself off to bed. I have done lots off reading and I am following the 4 week plan this week is full heat and day light no food and baths everyday, next week is down to 8 hours baths every day, week 3 is reduce light over the week down to 4 and baths every other day then the last week, I am moving him to a cool room no light and bath on day 3 before he goes to the mini fridge on final day.

Is it normal for him to sulk and sleep on day 1 he normally charges around banging the table walls till i fed him, He did a sad face for a hour then when to bed, Its as if he know what's coming lol. The house as been cold and I am trying not to use heating yet as bills are horrible lol.

How long would u let him Hybernate the first time, I know to watch his weight drop and if he wees to wake him up, I have his little fridge set at 5c it does go up a little every so often but thats if i put radiators on and it goes to 7c I have it i room there is no where else to keep it.

 

[Tracy Gould]

I weighed Shelby again before his bath he as lost 7g is this normal after 1 day without food? He did poo in his bath yesterday after i weighed him so I am trying not to worry. He wee today while being bathed but did not poo. He is still in a good ratio for hybanation he is now in 19s but i am worried about him losing weight to quick and not having enough stored for his sleep! I suppose as he cools down when his light goes on less he will slow down.Sorry about the flapping, not sure I am ever going to get use to doing this, but I know its better for him, it does not stop it scaring the hell out of me as i know u can lose them, and he is my baby.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I never have brumated (tortoises don't actually hibernate) my pets in the 40 or so years that I've kept tortoises, and it has never hurt their health...tortoises only brumate to survive adverse weather...if there's no adverse weather, as occasionally happens, they simply don't brumate. There is no adverse weather in a human's home, unless we decide to simulate it.

And, it should always be remembered that, no matter how carefully you attempt to go about it, some tortoises will not survive brumation...so, I simply don't risk it. I enjoy their presence indoors during the cool weather, and outside during the warm.

 

[Hantslad]

I have to agree with Terry. I think I would be far too stressed about my babies not waking up. Our reptile specialist suggested the worse that could happen if you don't hibernate is it could possibly take a couple of years off their life, but seeing as they'll outlive me anyway, I would prefer the option of having them around me all year long.

Whilst on this subject a funny story which is true. Earlier this year an elderly couple dialled 999 and reported a burglar in their loft. When the Police investigated they found that the family Tortoise had come out of hibernation and was walking about in the loft.

 

[Tracy Gould]

I been thinking long and hard about doing this since I got Shelby a 4 and half years ago, yer I know there are risks and I did read it shortens there life span not to do it with averages at around 35 years but can be up to 75 years. It not just the life span thing as I am 42 and know he is most likely going to out live me anyway I know its something this breed does naturally in the wild not just because of cold weather but the lack of food too, this is were i struggle at winter I hate not have the weeds to give him a varied diet bags of lettuce is only going to give him so much of what he needs to stay health. I tried freezing some but there not the same and Shelby is not impressed with them. I also read they are more prone to getting over weight not saying your torts are if they are health your doing a great job, and maybe u live in a warmer country were weeds grow all year round. I also hate it when we get power cuts and the worry u have about keeping them warm, then there is the Power bills and the fact I end up using a red heat bulb on a night to keep him warm.I have also not ruled out the idea of breeding him and I know that this helps get them intrested lol, I am really going to miss him when he is sleeping an I am scared about losing him too, but I really feel its the best thing for him and I am going to use the time to extend and paint his table with a suitable paint.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Tracy,
It is too much bathing if daily. Once every 3 days is ok, he will drink if he will need. A moderately humid hide will help conserve that moisture.
The weight lose in the first week is scary for all- me included. It is the week at normal summer temps, so they are active in defecating and excreting fast. But it is not a problem.
Losing weight during corect temps hibernation (3-7*C) means rather severe dehydration than burning reserves, that maybe accounting for other "hibernation deaths". That should be your concern- and luckily, Hermanni is quite moisture resistant, and you don't have to worry if it is too humid, as for Russians. Simply, just to feel a little moisture in the mix (BTW, what mix you will use?), but not enough to wet and dirt your hand if squeezed.

I agree with you, even maintaining tortoises active overwinter is difficult in our climates. Terry lives in a sunny region where winter is not cold, just cold snaps occur- these may be severe even for British winters, but very rare and of short duration. There are wild palms in that area (very hardy Sabal minor), not to mention good weeds, and sun-basking is possible in about half of winter days! Big difference- overwintering in UK or RO means exclusively indoors!
Of course, you wanting to respect their natural cycle is a good principle, that I follow too.

Do not fear, ask at every step, and it will be ok. I was also affraid of having things wrong done somewhere, but respecting the steps was not difficult. It cannot be that difficult, and it's not. For a healthy tortoise, it's just respecting the steps, nothing more. Asking clarifies possible doubts and wrong procedures.

Good luck!

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Tracy,
It is too much bathing if daily. Once every 3 days is ok, he will drink if he will need. A moderately humid hide will help conserve that moisture.
The weight lose in the first week is scary for all- me included. It is the week at normal summer temps, so they are active in defecating and excreting fast. But it is not a problem.
Losing weight during corect temps hibernation (3-7*C) means rather severe dehydration than burning reserves, that maybe accounting for other "hibernation deaths". That should be your concern- and luckily, Hermanni is quite moisture resistant, and you don't have to worry if it is too humid, as for Russians. Simply, just to feel a little moisture in the mix (BTW, what mix you will use?), but not enough to wet and dirt your hand if squeezed.

I agree with you, even maintaining tortoises active overwinter is difficult in our climates. Terry lives in a sunny region where winter is not cold, just cold snaps occur- these may be severe even for British winters, but very rare and of short duration. There are wild palms in that area (very hardy Sabal minor), not to mention good weeds, and sun-basking is possible in about half of winter days! Big difference- overwintering in UK or RO means exclusively indoors!
Of course, you wanting to respect their natural cycle is a good principle, that I follow too.

Do not fear, ask at every step, and it will be ok. I was also affraid of having things wrong done somewhere, but respecting the steps was not difficult. It cannot be that difficult, and it's not. For a healthy tortoise, it's just respecting the steps, nothing more. Asking clarifies possible doubts and wrong procedures.

Good luck!

Vinnie, you have no knowledge about The Republic, so you?

But no reason not to keep talking like you have some sort of a clue (likely gotten from a Sergio Leone Spaghetti-western...mostly filmed in Spain)...palm trees?

Here's a West Texas Palm Tree for you :

And, Tracy, bathing your tortoise daily will not harm him in any way, whatsoever. Bath him as often as you care to.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Sorry to disappoint you again, Terry... about plants, as in tortoises, as little as I know, I know for sure. And good enough in knowing the Republic climate and a few plants there, too- for a RO native.

I even can tell you quite a few things about Balkan climate, plants, and about a certain Eastern tortoise too . Especially the very dry climate, that obligates us to bath our tortoises daily, to prevent dehydration !

Remember- we do not make electric sparks here when shaking hands, and we don't use ambient humidifiers! That goes for England too.

Most important- I wanted just to emphasize on your better climate- if good enough for palms, then quite good for tortoise food too.

If I would have said "In Terry's location, there is fine enough for alligators to live", you would have said also that the movie I remember is maybe Crcodile Dundee, not alligators but crocodiles and it was not Texas, but Australia ? Well not in Wise, but in Collin and Fannin counties you have them...

Back to our sheeps- or cows, for TX: Sabal minor, true palm family member- maybe not in New Fairview, but in Dallas and some surroundings too.
http://dallaspalms.com/native_palm_groves_in_dallas.htm

They are found as far west as the dry Texas Hill Country- very small populations, strictly near creeks- they need water. Not remembering now where precisely.

The favourable areas beyond the actual distribution even allow them to naturalise easily- very good even for OKC.

Hard to spot, they are much smaller at the prairies edge; more obvious in winter, when erbaceous vegetation is dry. Many populations go unnoticed especially at the drier edge of the areal- wich is Texas.

No wonder that many Americans, you included, have no clue about palms in their "too cold" location- after all, everyone knows that "palms belong to Florida", isn't it ?
Well, an usual reply would be "Huh, these?? These are only damn dwarf palmettoes, not palmtrees!".

I've got a similar palm to that one with red fruits, seed origin near Seymour, Baylor Co. . But much more spiny! North Texas has pretty nice "palms" of that kind too !

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Sorry to disappoint you again, Terry... about plants, as in tortoises, as little as I know, I know for sure. And good enough in knowing the Republic climate and a few plants there, too- for a RO native.

I even can tell you quite a few things about Balkan climate, plants, and about a certain Eastern tortoise too . Especially the very dry climate, that obligates us to bath our tortoises daily, to prevent dehydration !

Remember- we do not make electric sparks here when shaking hands, and we don't use ambient humidifiers! That goes for England too.

Most important- I wanted just to emphasize on your better climate- if good enough for palms, then quite good for tortoise food too.

If I would have said "In Terry's location, there is fine enough for alligators to live", you would have said also that the movie I remember is maybe Crcodile Dundee, not alligators but crocodiles and it was not Texas, but Australia ? Well not in Wise, but in Collin and Fannin counties you have them...

Back to our sheeps- or cows, for TX: Sabal minor, true palm family member- maybe not in New Fairview, but in Dallas and some surroundings too.
http://dallaspalms.com/native_palm_groves_in_dallas.htm

They are found as far west as the dry Texas Hill Country- very small populations, strictly near creeks- they need water. Not remembering now where precisely.

The favourable areas beyond the actual distribution even allow them to naturalise easily- very good even for OKC.

Hard to spot, they are much smaller at the prairies edge; more obvious in winter, when erbaceous vegetation is dry. Many populations go unnoticed especially at the drier edge of the areal- wich is Texas.

No wonder that many Americans, you included, have no clue about palms in their "too cold" location- after all, everyone knows that "palms belong to Florida", isn't it ?
Well, an usual reply would be "Huh, these?? These are only damn dwarf palmettoes, not palmtrees!".

I've got a similar palm to that one with red fruits, seed origin near Seymour, Baylor Co. . But much more spiny! North Texas has pretty nice "palms" of that kind too !

You never disappoint me, Vinnie...and it's OK when you have your "strong opinions", as long as they don't lead to the illness or deaths of beloved pets...that's the only time I bother to correct your advice, and the only time I ever will.

Fair enough?

 

[CactusVinnie]

Fair enough, Terry...
... since you quoted the Gator and Palmetto infos in reply:

Just tell the same to those ignorants here, maybe they are interested to finally find that they don't have a clue too:

http://www.pollenlibrary.com/map.aspx?map=Sabal-minor.png

and here:

http://www.dfwwildlife.org/Alligator Distribution in Texas.pdf (the best map I found, with county lines shown, especially for ya )

There are tons of sources, for the ones not interested in them. Lots of distribution maps, if you bother to search.
For the interested ones, even from the other side of the pond, it's kindergarten level knowledge. It happens that those both species were ones of my obsessions from about 15-20 years ago, when Internet was not available here, and you can see that I know at least where they live. I have Palmettos, but given up to gators.
.............................................................................................................
And about tortoises- just a final question: how on earth a person, and a lot of other ones, can recommend a very dangerous (?) practice that is the cause (?) of numerous deaths? All of them should be on pills, if they risk their tortoises and lose them year by year, not learning!!
And the brumation idea in fact would have been longtime extinct if so dangerous, and it would be not even mentioned in hobby; recommended, even less. All pro-advices would be silenced by the number of deaths, and such a risky practice would disappear. But these are not empty random advices, these are routine and experience-based information.
Resulting succes-> can do it again next winter and let the others know how to do it. For the ones who ask.
Resulting in death-> giving up and let the others know the dangers- wich is fair enough, of course.

But it doesn't happen that way! We still have our tortoises, and even more of them, year by year! That's why I recommend that- and I hope you noticed that I do that only in debating, or when details are asked, not every time- just for people decided to do it, not the ones in doubt. Tracy asked and seems decided.
I can tell, generally, who can receive correctly such advices, and you can be sure I would not advocate brumation to a totally beginner that miss elementar knowledge. That can be seen from the first post.

I am not judging your practices, and debating is one different thing- I debated many times when it was the time and I can't bring nothing new about it. But practically, if it suits you, tortoises are ok, and you are not ready or willing to, and see it as risky, why trying to convince you other way?

It's a link in my signature, for the ones fearing long brumation, that may help in understanding the process- and everyone can read and asking more, or just ignore it.

You took it personally and not missing a chance to fire a bullet in my direction from time to time- no, it's just me expressing my opinions, (based on first-hand experience!), and it's the same thing you do.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Fair enough, Terry...
... since you quoted the Gator and Palmetto infos in reply:

Just tell the same to those ignorants here, maybe they are interested to finally find that they don't have a clue too:

http://www.pollenlibrary.com/map.aspx?map=Sabal-minor.png

and here:

http://www.dfwwildlife.org/Alligator Distribution in Texas.pdf (the best map I found, with county lines shown, especially for ya )

There are tons of sources, for the ones not interested in them. Lots of distribution maps, if you bother to search.
For the interested ones, even from the other side of the pond, it's kindergarten level knowledge. It happens that those both species were ones of my obsessions from about 15-20 years ago, when Internet was not available here, and you can see that I know at least where they live. I have Palmettos, but given up to gators.
.............................................................................................................
And about tortoises- just a final question: how on earth a person, and a lot of other ones, can recommend a very dangerous (?) practice that is the cause (?) of numerous deaths? All of them should be on pills, if they risk their tortoises and lose them year by year, not learning!!
And the brumation idea in fact would have been longtime extinct if so dangerous, and it would be not even mentioned in hobby; recommended, even less. All pro-advices would be silenced by the number of deaths, and such a risky practice would disappear. But these are not empty random advices, these are routine and experience-based information.
Resulting succes-> can do it again next winter and let the others know how to do it. For the ones who ask.
Resulting in death-> giving up and let the others know the dangers- wich is fair enough, of course.

But it doesn't happen that way! We still have our tortoises, and even more of them, year by year! That's why I recommend that- and I hope you noticed that I do that only in debating, or when details are asked, not every time- just for people decided to do it, not the ones in doubt. Tracy asked and seems decided.
I can tell, generally, who can receive correctly such advices, and you can be sure I would not advocate brumation to a totally beginner that miss elementar knowledge. That can be seen from the first post.

I am not judging your practices, and debating is one different thing- I debated many times when it was the time and I can't bring nothing new about it. But practically, if it suits you, tortoises are ok, and you are not ready or willing to, and see it as risky, why trying to convince you other way?

It's a link in my signature, for the ones fearing long brumation, that may help in understanding the process- and everyone can read and asking more, or just ignore it.

You took it personally and not missing a chance to fire a bullet in my direction from time to time- no, it's just me expressing my opinions, (based on first-hand experience!), and it's the same thing you do.

Please refer to my previous message to you...no need to waste bandwidth repeating myself.

 

[Tracy Gould]

Thanks for the advice his weight lose as stopped he as maintained the same weight for 3 days now. he is not pooing every day he went 2 days now he's gone 3 he still passing urinates every other day. he is sleeping most of the day (after his begging that is, they know how to make u feel bad don't they lol). I know to expect more loss but i am hoping it stays slow. I know lots do not believe in doing this and I can understand why people chose not to, but as i said this country is not good for natural food in the winter and lettuce bags are not a healthy diet on their own and I read this species should have veggies kept to a min if not at all. I also know there is alot out there that believe u should brumate them as hatchlings and not wait 5 years. But I could never risk a hatchling. I used the years I had Shelby to study both sides of the debate, and come to the concussion a Hermmans in the wild will do this even though they live in a country that does not have winters like we do the sleep to cope with the drop in temps and the lack of weeds. So this is in there make up, unlike tropical Torts they sleep for the winter so although I am scared I feel it the right thing to do. If i did not want to have a Tort that needed to brumate I would have got a tropical one like My daughters redfoot. I went in a pet shop that sells Torts and was shocked to hear him tell me that hermanns do not brumate in the wild they only do this in this Country because of our Weather!!!! I felt like putting him straight and tell him some home truths ( this is the guy my daughter and I rescued the redfoot from because he was keeping him on dry pelts with no water and the poor tort had dry skin over his head) its shocking how some one that sells torts can know so little about them.

 

[CactusVinnie]

"although I am scared I feel it the right thing to do"

... the same here, Tracy... and for most of us, the first time.

"Hermmans in the wild will do this even though they live in a country that does not have winters like we do"

Not true... you have much cooler summers, but not harsher winters. Checking Leeds climate- being closer to you- I noticed it is quite similar in winter to some of the mildest Hermanni habitats in the Mediteranean proximity.
As for the inland Balkans- if you have an Eastern- things are getting worse: absolute minimas close to -30*C, and regularily -15 to -20*C. Much colder than your place!

In fact, hatchling are as easy to hibernate as the adults!! Do not underestimate their hardiness for their fragility.
Think of baby lizards- you surely have them there- they manage to digg deep enough, being even more fragile. But I suspect not able to survive after being frozen solid at -2...-4*C- well, even French Hermanni can do that! Except for severe weakened and underweight ones, it's safe. Very easy to dehydrate, OTOH, due to small size and thin tegument, that's the main concern.

How was Shelby maintained- outdoors?

 

[Tracy Gould]

"although I am scared I feel it the right thing to do"

... the same here, Tracy... and for most of us, the first time.

"Hermmans in the wild will do this even though they live in a country that does not have winters like we do"

Not true... you have much cooler summers, but not harsher winters. Checking Leeds climate- being closer to you- I noticed it is quite similar in winter to some of the mildest Hermanni habitats in the Mediteranean proximity.
As for the inland Balkans- if you have an Eastern- things are getting worse: absolute minimas close to -30*C, and regularily -15 to -20*C. Much colder than your place!

In fact, hatchling are as easy to hibernate as the adults!! Do not underestimate their hardiness for their fragility.
Think of baby lizards- you surely have them there- they manage to digg deep enough, being even more fragile. But I suspect not able to survive after being frozen solid at -2...-4*C- well, even French Hermanni can do that! Except for severe weakened and underweight ones, it's safe. Very easy to dehydrate, OTOH, due to small size and thin tegument, that's the main concern.

How was Shelby maintained- outdoors?

Ok i did not know easten europe had winters like us u learn something new evey day lol. I knew hatchling can hibernate but not sure my nerves could take it lol.

Shelby as a table in doors were he spends most of his life, He does have a pen outside 4ft by 4ft with lots of tort weeds and hiding places where he spends a few hours in summer when weather is hot enough it does not have a lamp out there I rely on natural sun when is is out I also take him on the front garden as its got a natural step down and let him have a run around while i sit on the step and keep an eye on him he tends to spend around 20 mins scoffing the clover and other weeds in the garden then starts looking for a hiding spot I tend to take that as he is getting cool and take him back to his table, he is getting good at hiding in his pen too since the tort friendly weed went mad I spent a few heart stopping moments looking for him in there lol, I know he can not get out I lined the whole area covered the liner with soil and edged the pen with slabs it also as a top to it so he is going no where but still scares me when he hides in the weeds or in his little tunnel lol your always hearing of them proving people wrong.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Having a small greenhouse or polytunnel built especially for him, you can let him outdoors full season, until winter. It accumulates so much heat, that you can keep even more heat-demanding species.
It has to have an opening at the base, for the tortoise to get in and out, and prevent overheating.
Outdoor keeping will make him hardier and more accorded to his environment.
If the construction allows, he can spend even the winter outdoors, as Hermanni are very moisture resistent compared to other tortoises. Just to control the humidity, and not letting it to be excessive. But if you are not sure about predators, better controlled hibernation.
When he retreats to hiding, not necessarily is from cold- he would rather bask if feeling cold. If you will let him out next year, you will discover the new tricks he will use; for now, he is not practising them, just spending a few hours outdoors cannot trigger full natural behaviour.
Here we have now about 0-5*C at night, and 10-13*C maxima, and if sunny, my Hermanni are out, in the cold, basking. They will get quite warm to the touch!
Quite weird for an Ibera guy to notice that Boettgeri do not tend to hide or burrow for now, and even with a little dust of morning frot, they are not even entering the hides during night, and sleeping under the stars!! Even under cold rain!! Iberas do not expose themselves that much, they are more cautious- although coming from very cold locations, they are more sensitive to cold+moisture combination, and they avoid that.
Forgot to ask you: Shelby is a Western or an Eastern (Boettgeri)? Both are hardy enough, despite Mediteranean origin of the Westerners. I keep Eastern/Boettgeri only.

 

[Tracy Gould]

Having a small greenhouse or polytunnel built especially for him, you can let him outdoors full season, until winter. It accumulates so much heat, that you can keep even more heat-demanding species.
It has to have an opening at the base, for the tortoise to get in and out, and prevent overheating.
Outdoor keeping will make him hardier and more accorded to his environment.
If the construction allows, he can spend even the winter outdoors, as Hermanni are very moisture resistent compared to other tortoises. Just to control the humidity, and not letting it to be excessive. But if you are not sure about predators, better controlled hibernation.
When he retreats to hiding, not necessarily is from cold- he would rather bask if feeling cold. If you will let him out next year, you will discover the new tricks he will use; for now, he is not practising them, just spending a few hours outdoors cannot trigger full natural behaviour.
Here we have now about 0-5*C at night, and 10-13*C maxima, and if sunny, my Hermanni are out, in the cold, basking. They will get quite warm to the touch!
Quite weird for an Ibera guy to notice that Boettgeri do not tend to hide or burrow for now, and even with a little dust of morning frot, they are not even entering the hides during night, and sleeping under the stars!! Even under cold rain!! Iberas do not expose themselves that much, they are more cautious- although coming from very cold locations, they are more sensitive to cold+moisture combination, and they avoid that.
Forgot to ask you: Shelby is a Western or an Eastern (Boettgeri)? Both are hardy enough, despite Mediteranean origin of the Westerners. I keep Eastern/Boettgeri only.

I intend to build him a bigger area outside when i can afford it and have made some room out there,I do worry about thefts as there are a few that live in my area, I do have a dog but that would not stop some of them, I think that's one of the reasons I have held off. Shelby is Eastern.

 

[Tracy Gould]

Well Shelby as gone 8 days with out having a poo so I think he is empty now he wee urates on the 9th when he was bathed and went till today and passed them again in his bath is this normal it was a large amount but not gritty? I do not think he as had a wee between if so he as he did not pass urates,do they do this because he as been storing his urine? I thought he would stop passing them as his system emptied,he is spending most of his time in his hide.and i am reducing his light from 8 hrs (last week) down to 4 he is on 6 today. He still comes out and sits under light for a while I have even caught him sleeping there. He is still in the 19s on the ratio. If the Urates are nothing to be worried about on his 3rd week I think we are on track touch wood x

 

[Tracy Gould]

OK Shelby as just decided to poo in his bath!! after 10 days and 17 days since i last fed him, Is light is only on for 4 hrs now and it will be week 4 on Wednesday that's when I was planing to turn light off and move him to cool room to get him to start sleeping and to cool ready for fridge!

Am I ok to still do this or do i need to keep him awake a little longer He as just dropped into the 18s on ratio so I do not want to keep him too warm for much longer or he is going to lose too much weight but do not want to lose him because he as food in his system!

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Brumating tortoises, whether under artificial conditions (captivity) or natural conditions (in the wild) always, are always at some risk.

Just how it has to be, but many do survive.

Good luck wished to both you and Shelby.

 

[Tracy Gould]

Well Shelby as finally started to shut down I moved him to my down stairs shower room which is pretty cold and that did the trick I moved him to my car boot today and left him there till night time when i put him back in the shower room as i was worried the car would get to cold it was reading 7c today in there which is ok but i worried abit as the outside temps were 9c an they are saying its going to drop to 4c and if it gets colded than that in there I know that's bad. So he is back in cold room till morning it reading 9c in there which i know is too warm but he will go back out to car in morning. Then after he as had some time at the lower car temps he is going in the mini fridge for his big sleep which gives readings between 5c an 7c depending on my heating been on. He had is final soak today which i kept cool but he still opened his eyes and looked gone out he went back to sleep after though.