Pyramiding and my experiences

allegraf

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They all died a horrible death by being eaten by ducks..just kidding. We ended up selling some and keeping most. We moved earlier this year so they got a bit pyramided as it took a few months to get all the adult pens ready much less theirs. Plus, we were worried about predators at the new house. At least the old one, we had been there 6 years and had a good feel for the animals in the hood. I will try to remember to post pics. The new pens are not as planted as the others, as our house need work as well so priorities and all that. This year's crop is significantly reduced as we got hit by opossums that got most of the clutches we missed-we missed a lot as we were cleaning up the old house to move. So far we have a cool clutch from @cdmay 's tortoise Tambaqui-tends to throw marbled. One is very very likely to marble-to say that about a 3 week old hatchling is something I never do, but this one it is pretty evident even from this size. Carl can correct me (as I am sure he will and no less than I deserve). Some eggs still cooking from Mango-laid 4/30/17 so we will see if they ever hatch. Some Colombians and a few random eggs left.
 

cdmay

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Tambaqui does indeed produce some profoundly marbled neonates from time to time. Hoping for the best.
Oh boy....Mango babies? That would be really cool!
 

allegraf

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Tambaqui does indeed produce some profoundly marbled neonates from time to time. Hoping for the best.
Oh boy....Mango babies? That would be really cool!
Here are pics of Tam's babies. Very strong possibility of marbling!ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1504199315.861221.jpgImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1504199335.207220.jpgImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1504199374.763987.jpgImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1504199395.688674.jpgImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1504199407.789341.jpgImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1504199422.038215.jpg

Here is a baby we picked up at a local show. You see the difference in new growth. It appears to be a similar age to Tam's (approx 3 weeks old)ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1504199497.470632.jpgImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1504199517.737602.jpg
 

cdmay

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Those will all marble. Now you owe me $$.
Staying on topic---do your best not to pyramid them.
And disappoint me.
 

allegraf

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No take-back-sies!! Maybe I should give them to @CharlieM to raise up nice and smooth. I can always send the extra scute one to @Redstrike

On a side note: the rebel in me lives to tweak your nose-not disappoint but make you sweat!
 

cdmay

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One additional note about 'wild raising' in south Florida...
Over the years I have encountered numerous neonates that hatched out in my yard from nests that I wasn't aware of. In once instance my blind neighbor to the south of me presented me with a neonate that hatched and then crawled through the slats in my fence and ended up in his yard. His seeing eye Doberman Pincher named 'Hooker' had picked up the little tortoise and brought it to him, unharmed. I remember Jymm calling me over one afternoon and asking, "What the hell is this in my hand?" as he held out the perfect hatchling. Hooker was beaming with pride...

But in two instances other neighbors brought me juveniles that had been living outside for at least a full year or maybe even two. They were both found only a house or two over from me but one was over 3.5 inches long and the other, right at 3 inches.
Both had nearly perfect shells that although really dirty, had very even growth. Clearly they had been finding suitable places to rest and feeding on who-knows-what.
As a side note...in both cases (ten years apart) the little tortoises had endured winters where the temperatures had dipped in to the low 40's and even upper 30's for at least a few nights. And then temperatures in the low 50s on several occasions.
 

Anyfoot

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One additional note about 'wild raising' in south Florida...
Over the years I have encountered numerous neonates that hatched out in my yard from nests that I wasn't aware of. In once instance my blind neighbor to the south of me presented me with a neonate that hatched and then crawled through the slats in my fence and ended up in his yard. His seeing eye Doberman Pincher named 'Hooker' had picked up the little tortoise and brought it to him, unharmed. I remember Jymm calling me over one afternoon and asking, "What the hell is this in my hand?" as he held out the perfect hatchling. Hooker was beaming with pride...

But in two instances other neighbors brought me juveniles that had been living outside for at least a full year or maybe even two. They were both found only a house or two over from me but one was over 3.5 inches long and the other, right at 3 inches.
Both had nearly perfect shells that although really dirty, had very even growth. Clearly they had been finding suitable places to rest and feeding on who-knows-what.
As a side note...in both cases (ten years apart) the little tortoises had endured winters where the temperatures had dipped in to the low 40's and even upper 30's for at least a few nights. And then temperatures in the low 50s on several occasions.
Any thoughts on what they may have eaten?
Bugs and foliage?????
 

Anyfoot

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allegraf

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Ha! little to none, I just grabbed some random ones that came out. Mine are little, I think we are growing them too slow! Started adding Mazuri into their diet every other week.
 

Anyfoot

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Here are pics of Tam's babies. Very strong possibility of marbling!View attachment 217060View attachment 217061View attachment 217062View attachment 217063View attachment 217064View attachment 217065

Here is a baby we picked up at a local show. You see the difference in new growth. It appears to be a similar age to Tam's (approx 3 weeks old)View attachment 217066View attachment 217067
Do your Brazilians have full black plastrons. I have a male and female that are both small at around 9" SCL that have full black plastrons, then I have another female that's over 12" SCL that does not have a full black plastron, its got a marbled effect on the plastron. Maybe there are more than one type of Brazilian. Anyway to keep it on topic here is one of the babies from the small 9" Brazilians. Completely opposite to what you and Carl get, very dark.
This one is 3 months old and the 1st true growth ring is just kicking in. IMG_0694.JPGIMG_0695.JPG

All mine seem to follow a similar growing pattern that is generally as follows, very smooth for 3 months (almost looks like an extension of the areole) then growth rings kick in for a further 3 months whilst maintaining the round carapace shape, then at around 6 to 7 months old they get an awful ugly deep crevice that grows wide(think this is bone thickening under the scutes. Then over the next 2 or 3 months that awful wide crevice seems to smooth out again.
These 2 photos are of the same tortoise. 1st one is around 8/9 months old, 2nd one is today's photo at 11 months old. The ugly crevice seems to be growing out, I've also noticed they don't seem to grow in size that much during this stage, I'm guessing there's more internal growing going on instead. I've also noticed at 11 months old if I press hard on the carapace it still flexes at the scute joints so not letting them dry out is still important IMO.
IMG_0531.jpgIMG_0679.JPG

The reason I asked for weights is because I see similar growth in your photos 4 and 5 to mine and I was trying to work out if growth pattern follows age/time or size, if you say yours are growing slow then it's age/time.
 

cdmay

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Do your Brazilians have full black plastrons. I have a male and female that are both small at around 9" SCL that have full black plastrons, then I have another female that's over 12" SCL that does not have a full black plastron, its got a marbled effect on the plastron. Maybe there are more than one type of Brazilian. Anyway to keep it on topic here is one of the babies from the small 9" Brazilians. Completely opposite to what you and Carl get, very dark.
This one is 3 months old and the 1st true growth ring is just kicking in. View attachment 217207View attachment 217208

All mine seem to follow a similar growing pattern that is generally as follows, very smooth for 3 months (almost looks like an extension of the areole) then growth rings kick in for a further 3 months whilst maintaining the round carapace shape, then at around 6 to 7 months old they get an awful ugly deep crevice that grows wide(think this is bone thickening under the scutes. Then over the next 2 or 3 months that awful wide crevice seems to smooth out again.
These 2 photos are of the same tortoise. 1st one is around 8/9 months old, 2nd one is today's photo at 11 months old. The ugly crevice seems to be growing out, I've also noticed they don't seem to grow in size that much during this stage, I'm guessing there's more internal growing going on instead. I've also noticed at 11 months old if I press hard on the carapace it still flexes at the scute joints so not letting them dry out is still important IMO.
View attachment 217210View attachment 217211

The reason I asked for weights is because I see similar growth in your photos 4 and 5 to mine and I was trying to work out if growth pattern follows age/time or size, if you say yours are growing slow then it's age/time.

I'm not exactly sure about the actual nuts and bolts of when and how the underlying bone structure forms in growing tortoises. I have my own thoughts, but nothing concrete. Or provable.
@Markw84 is more knowledgeable than I am regarding this subject, he might chime in.

As for Brazilians with black plastrons, most of my adult females have them. Although not black as juveniles or young adults, their plastrons eventually turned solid black. Males tend to have plastrons that darken with age too.
 

Anyfoot

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I'm not exactly sure about the actual nuts and bolts of when and how the underlying bone structure forms in growing tortoises. I have my own thoughts, but nothing concrete. Or provable.
@Markw84 is more knowledgeable than I am regarding this subject, he might chime in.

As for Brazilians with black plastrons, most of my adult females have them. Although not black as juveniles or young adults, their plastrons eventually turned solid black. Males tend to have plastrons that darken with age too.
@Markw84 is my goto on this subject. :D
I think learning how the bone structure develops over the first yr or so is key for us to understand care needs.
What I'm not understanding yet is if we have 2 torts and grow one slow and one fast does their bone growth develop at the same pace regardless of size. So for example we could have two torts at the same age but one at 3" and one at 4" SCL. Are both torts bones under the scutes the same thickness and are the fontanels at the same stage even though there is a size difference. If yes then is it possible to grow keratin beyond where the bone structure should be at a more advanced developed stage.
 

cdmay

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@Markw84 is my goto on this subject. :D
I think learning how the bone structure develops over the first yr or so is key for us to understand care needs.
What I'm not understanding yet is if we have 2 torts and grow one slow and one fast does their bone growth develop at the same pace regardless of size. So for example we could have two torts at the same age but one at 3" and one at 4" SCL. Are both torts bones under the scutes the same thickness and are the fontanels at the same stage even though there is a size difference. If yes then is it possible to grow keratin beyond where the bone structure should be at a more advanced developed stage.
Markw84 and I differ a little on the subject of growth and pyramiding, but in general I agree with him also. He is also a superb turtle keeper as is obvious from the photos he's shared.
 

Anyfoot

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@cdmay. Just read AGAIN what you and mark were discussing about growth. That wasn't the thread to carry the conversation on.
Do you have any photos of farm bred redfoots at around the 4" stage.

Comparing a tort that is active for a full year and grows 2" in that yr is on par with a tort that is active for half a yr and grows 1" is what @Markw84 is saying and it makes sense to some degree. I think Marks theory on bone and keratin growth is spot on and I agree with him. However your concern for fast growth is also something I can't shake off with my thoughts. If a wild redfoots carapace is like the surface of a bowling ball(marble smooth) then it's either because of wear from abrasion or because the growth rings are tighter(slower growing). If it's the latter then the 1yr and half yr activity theory is irrelevant, the tort grows slower no matter the time it is active. The other thing that is puzzling me is bone growth to time ratio. I was under the impression that bone grows at its most when at rest(at least with mammals). If that is correct then that has a BIG relevance to the 1yr and half yr theory, I would also think night time lows play a big roll if bone grows more at rest. I don't have night time lows.
What is the reason for this tort looking so smooth. I mean bowling ball smooth, not the carapace shape. Is it wear, slow growth,maybe it's even the surface of the hardened keratin that degrades a bit as it ages. IMG_0702.jpg
 
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