Pyramiding as an Environmental Response

[Balboa]

Crazy idea number 357...

Tortoises as a Family are literally older than dirt. It has always seemed very odd to me that it could be so "easy" for them to become so hideously malformed in captivity. Many consider this a sign of just HOW BAD we are doing at taking care of them. Yet at the same time they are obviously MASTER survivalists, able to have survived for so long on earth through massive environmental changes.

What if pyramiding is not a "disease" like rickets, but an in-built adaptation to environment, like skin tanning?

If we consider the "other-wise" healthy pyramided tortoise in the context of an arid, sunny environment they may have some advantages over their smooth shelled brethren. The pyramids increase surface area of the shell, without increasing incidental solar exposure. This allows for better excess heat shedding without collecting any more heat.

The valleys created by these pyramids also help to protect the sensitive scute margins from dehydration. I've noticed on Rocky that her margins are the last part of her shell to dry out, lasting far longer than the pyramids.

Obviously, this is not an ideal adaptation, as it could easily weaken the shell and is irreversable. It seems more like a desparate survival mechanism to allow the species to survive massive droughts or environmental shifts, hopefully temporary of nature, or at least to survive long enough to migrate to better lands.

Maybe by keeping our torts too dry we trigger this instinctive growth response. Their bodies think they're living in a drought, so they take on their drought species form.

Of course this doesn't mean I think its ok then to accept pyramiding in our torts. This is still not the "ideal" way for them to be, and still signals a failure in husbandry.

 

[Yvonne G]

Isn't there a foot ball game on tv? You have much too much time on your hands!

(Your reasoning sounds perfectly reasonable to me! )

 

[Tom]

Sounds like a plausible theory to me too.

 

[Balboa]

LOL I think that's one of my problems, I don't watch TV. I find it shuts off my mind.

 

[Yvonne G]

This is the first time that I've noticed that Rocky's body is Rocky Balboa's body. Did you just recently update that avatar?

 

[Shelly]

Not to nitpick, but I think that's Rambo's body. Same as Rocky's but more roids and grease.

 

[Tom]

I have been "disturbed" by that avatar for quite a while now. No its not new.

 

[Neal]

Interesting theory, it's a reasonable answer to why the "deformity" develop as pyramids, but I would think if it was the reaction to growing up dry and nearly dehydrated than wouldn't we see more of this in the wild? Some parts of Africa where leopard tortoises are from are prone to droughts right?

I just got your avatar picture too, I thought the body part was the plastron and just thought it was a weird picture. Now I think it's cool, so if I can change, and yous can change, then everyone can change!

 

[Madkins007]

This does not seem to adequately address the issues in Andy Highfield's field studies he recently documented. I find myself thinking more and more that pyramiding is a dietary/growth issue that lots of humidity can deal with in a different manner.

My thoughts are that some tortoises go 6 months without real food after hatching, growing on the nutrients in the yolk sac.They also hide a lot, have soft shells, and are really edible. Maybe the first 6-12 months are about not growing in length but hardening the shell and developing internally? This would seem to be when building bone density that resists pyramiding occurs. Light on the carbs, fats, and proteins without skimping on the calcium, vitamin D, etc.

 

[Balboa]

This is the first time that I've noticed that Rocky's body is Rocky Balboa's body. Did you just recently update that avatar?

ROFL

I wondered if anybody ever caught on to that. Yep its a redfoot head photoshopped onto a picture of Stallone as Rocky Balboa. It would've been clearer if the pic could've been bigger, but with a full body shot it was totally indestinguishable.

Technically its Adrienne (the tort) as well, just to really confuse things.

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This does not seem to adequately address the issues in Andy Highfield's field studies he recently documented. I find myself thinking more and more that pyramiding is a dietary/growth issue that lots of humidity can deal with in a different manner.

My thoughts are that some tortoises go 6 months without real food after hatching, growing on the nutrients in the yolk sac.They also hide a lot, have soft shells, and are really edible. Maybe the first 6-12 months are about not growing in length but hardening the shell and developing internally? This would seem to be when building bone density that resists pyramiding occurs. Light on the carbs, fats, and proteins without skimping on the calcium, vitamin D, etc.

In all honesty, I think Andy Highfield is a pit bull that needs to let go of the already dead mule he's thrashing on. I really saw nothing in his recent study to convince me of diet playing a significant role. I see a good discussion could be had there, as I know you are a smart one Mark, so obviously you see something there I don't.

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Interesting theory, it's a reasonable answer to why the "deformity" develop as pyramids, but I would think if it was the reaction to growing up dry and nearly dehydrated than wouldn't we see more of this in the wild? Some parts of Africa where leopard tortoises are from are prone to droughts right?

I just got your avatar picture too, I thought the body part was the plastron and just thought it was a weird picture. Now I think it's cool, so if I can change, and yous can change, then everyone can change!

Good points Neal. I've heard both claims of seeing pyramided torts in the wilds of africa, and claims that there is no such thing. Until I get there and start doing some tortoise searching on my own, I'm not sure who to believe.

Obviously Tom (one of the few folks I've been able to talk to who has seen wild torts) saw no pyramided torts in South Africa, with its nice mediteranean climate and consistant weather patterns. What about further inland?

 

[onarock]

Thinking out of the box like a true electrician, Balboa. Could it also be for getting more sun exposure. Like solar panels in a open field......allowing them to heat faster. Maybe there is a tie with night time lows. Madkins does have a point. I understand that its pretty dry in some of their native land. I have posted in the past asking about the possibility that tortoises migrate. We may find adults in dry areas, but is that where they hatch. Maybe they move to more highly vegitated or wet areas. It would be interesting to find out that at any given time of the year at certain places the tortoises that people see are either all male or all female. We dont know what they do. Madkins also stated that maybe they go up to 6 months without real food. I think this is a real possibility. We know that animals that dont raise their young usually leave them with a health starting out food supply. In this case a yolk. Yolk to an animal is about as good of a food option as it gets It may just be the best food they will ever have.

 

[PeanutbuttER]

I have been "disturbed" by that avatar for quite a while now. No its not new.

I'm surprised so many people haven't noticed. Since when did any tortoise have abs like those?

It's been there for at least 2 months ish I would guess.

As far as the theory, IMO it sounds plausible but isn't accurate. Wild torts aren't starved for the sun so if that part of it were true then forest torts would naturally pyramid to increase their ability to absorb some rays. If heat were the issue then I would expect desert tortoises to only pyramid in captivity when they are kept too hot. However temperature is not the deciding factor in pyramiding in hatchlings. Keep 'em too cold and they get sick, but not pyramided. Admittedly, keep them too hot and chances are too dry as well so you do see pyramiding but probably not from the temperature aspect directly.

Plus the relatively non-existent occurrence of wild pyramided tortoises makes me think it's not an adaptation that they go into very easily but rather are forced into by captive conditions. I'm that sense though it is an enviroental response, hmmm, that's a weird thought.

 

[Madkins007]

I'm not sure 'diet' is quite the right word for it... I just wonder if baby torts eat the way we think they do. It sort of goes back to your bug-eater theory- maybe babies differently than we think they do.

 

[Balboa]

Well Mark, you know I'm right on board with your thoughts on us not understanding baby torts wild diets.

It occured to me after I posted it that my analogy for Andy was a bit disrespectful, the guy's heart is certainly in the right place, and he has campained long and hard for torts. I just think he's been far too stubborn in supporting an idea that has yet to be supported by research, and in fact research is showing to be incorrect. At least now he's cracked the door a bit to Ed Pirog's ideas.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that diet (or lack there-of) may still play a part at some level. More research required.

To my minds logic, pyramiding happens far too easily. It just doesn't make sense that nature can be so delicate and fallible on such a well evolved creature. Many other creatures can endure far worse abuse at our hands, and take years to show the results before they die, if they ever do. Captive torts fed a seemingly adequate diet, and kept in reasonable conditions that other biome coinhabitants survive, readily pyramid.

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Peanut, I think its more a big picture thing than a leads to b. Too much heat alone is only really a problem if you can't find a way to cool down and keep hydrated (to a point). Too much heat over a long period of time, dries out the ground which leads to many plant species whithering away. We go from say grassland to desert, which has a dramatic impact on organisms living there. No more plants means far less shade to be had. A warmer body will also dehydrate quicker than a cooler body.

Plop a redfoot in the desert and they will likely overheat and dry out. Plob a baby redfoot under some brush in the desert, and it may survive, but it may grow up pyramided from the dry air, and thus better able to cope with the heat when in the open. (this idea pivots largely on humidity/hydration producing smooth torts).

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I made a picture to try and illustrate my thinking. I know pics help me think, so I thought it might help some of you, I can tell by some responses you're not getting it. (Its fine to agree or disagree with the premise about the cause of pyramiding, but you need to at least get the principle first )

I tried to show that the total light energy that hits a pyramided shell from straight above is the same as for a smooth. This means they both absorb the exact same amount of heat, but the pyramided due to its increases surface area can shed that heat quicker. (like cooling fins on an engine)

If the light is coming in from an angle, the pyramided actually gets a little more energy, but this may be an advantage as the sun is going down.

I'm not sure this theory could ever be proven, but I am thinking of ways to support the credibility. I'm hoping to make two model torts from wood, one smooth, one pyramided, paint them flat black and perform some tests. It remains to be seen if the pyramided tort actually has enough increased surface area to make a significant difference in core temps.

 

[Madkins007]

Well, heck, if you are going to go with pyramiding as a positive thing, how about the detail that some of the naturally pyramided species are almost impossible to put on their back? If it is a natural response, perhaps it is to the drier habitat probably being rockier/thornier and more likely to tip a tortoise. Red-foots, because of their limited rear leg mobility are considered more at risk of dying on their backs.


What part of Andy's research do you think has been proven incorrect?

 

[stells]

But what about the bone... you are on about the scutes pyramiding... but its the bone underneath the scute that pyramids...

 

[Balboa]

Well, heck, if you are going to go with pyramiding as a positive thing, how about the detail that some of the naturally pyramided species are almost impossible to put on their back? If it is a natural response, perhaps it is to the drier habitat probably being rockier/thornier and more likely to tip a tortoise. Red-foots, because of their limited rear leg mobility are considered more at risk of dying on their backs.


What part of Andy's research do you think has been proven incorrect?

LOL, I guess you could call it a positive spin, but I'd be hard pressed to consider pyramiding as a positive. Its more of an extreme response to extreme conditions that should be avoided.

It IS an interesting point though about how a pyramided tort will be more rightable when tipped. "In the jungle" pyramids would be disadvantageous as they create catches to make wiggling through thick brush difficult, whereas a slim, smooth profile slips right past. Two body types for two environments.

As to Andy's research, its not so much that I've seen "diet as a cause of pyramiding" disproven, but neither proven as well. I have yet to read any evidence, stories, references, whatever to pyramiding being corrected or prevented by diet. I've read studies and seen evidence to humidity playing a role however, (like Tom's experiences). As I recall the "Austrian" study addressed diet as well, and concluded it made only a small difference if any.

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But what about the bone... you are on about the scutes pyramiding... but its the bone underneath the scute that pyramids...

Dang Kelly,
I'm trying to follow what you're saying here, but I'm not sure I am.

As to which comes first, the deformed bone, or the deformed scute, I'm of the mindset that the scute deforms first and the bone grows to match it.

As to the actual physical mechanism at hand through which pyramiding occurs, I'm unsure, and I have yet to read of anything that explains it, just theories.

My idea is that it may be "intentional" on part of the nature of tortoises to pyramid at times. It could be that the drying out of the scute margin creates the step deformity, so its a mechanical mechanism to create the effect, maybe even more to protect the margin from further damage than any other reason.

It could also be an internal growth response, decreased hydration brings about hormonal changes that alter the way the shell grows. Who knows. Sure is interesting to think about though.

 

[stells]

How do you explain the scute material still being thin on a pyramided tortoise... if you think its the scute that pyramids first and the bone follows?

 

[egyptiandan]

Here's what I picked out of your post #14 "Captive torts fed a seemingly adequate diet" I think that concisely puts where the understanding of tortoise diet is for most people.
The internal structures of a tortoise are affected by things a tortoise ingests or doesn't ingest. Enviromental factors affect a tortoise in so far as to change internal processes, like dehydration. Lower temperatures would also affect a tortoise by not letting a tortoise eat as much as it should causing anemia again affecting an internal process.
When you talk pyramiding you can never get away from what is happening inside a tortoise. Thats where it all starts.

Danny

 

[Tom]

Thinking out of the box like a true electrician, Balboa. Could it also be for getting more sun exposure. Like solar panels in a open field......allowing them to heat faster. Maybe there is a tie with night time lows. Madkins does have a point. I understand that its pretty dry in some of their native land. I have posted in the past asking about the possibility that tortoises migrate. We may find adults in dry areas, but is that where they hatch. Maybe they move to more highly vegitated or wet areas. It would be interesting to find out that at any given time of the year at certain places the tortoises that people see are either all male or all female. We dont know what they do. Madkins also stated that maybe they go up to 6 months without real food. I think this is a real possibility. We know that animals that dont raise their young usually leave them with a health starting out food supply. In this case a yolk. Yolk to an animal is about as good of a food option as it gets It may just be the best food they will ever have.

Excellent points here. Tremendous insight could be gained by studying wild populations over an extended period of time. I've always wondered about the possibility of migration, groups and the sex ratios within them, and wether or not they have a "preferred" area to lay eggs, like sea turtles. Sea turtles always return to the same beach where they were hatched to lay their own eggs. People have told me that what I'm doing with my babies is "un-natural". They say that there is no pond for babies to sit in every day in the desert and that it does not rain on their shells 3-4 times every day. I say, "How do you know?" Maybe the females trek over to a permanent water source and lay their eggs near it. Maybe the babies that survive find hidey holes near the water that are damp or even wet. Nothing but pure fantasy on my part, but the point is that NOBODY really knows, one way or the other. Highfeild's observations were great, but still only a 14 day period in a tiny part of one species' habitat. If we get a thousand people doing that same thing all over the globe, with multiple species, over large portions of a species range, at different times of the year, then we will really be getting somewhere.

Until that happens, we are left with observing what works AND what doesn't work in captivity, and trying to find theories to explain what we see.

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Balboa, I love your point about how these animals have adapted and survived for millions of years, but that some element or multiple elements, are so wrong in captivity that it causes them to become grossly disfigured. It has been this way for at least 20 years. Only in the last few years has any "real" progress been made in solving these problem. There are a lot of people that have been contributing puzzle pieces to help figure this out.

Danny, I love your note about the "seemingly adequate" diets. This is another area that needs major, long term study in wild populations.