Pyramiding Debate Twixt EJ and AH

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Balboa

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Tom

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Okay I got to page three and its getting late. Time for bed. Great link Balboa. I look forward to discussing this more when some of us have had a chance to read through the whole thing.
 

Balboa

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Where to start....

First off, in my current place of "apprentice" tortoise keeping, there are 3 "Masters" or "Gurus". Three folks who seem to hold the greatest knowledge of tortoises, and have the greatest influence on husbandry practices across the community. Listed in order of "power" but not necessarily right or wrong or knowledge they are:

1. Andy Highfield
2. Ed Pirog
3. Danny (yes, EgyptianDan.... though I don't know his last name as the others, he's like the quiet, underground master, his influence is pervasive, he is everywhere, quietly helping tortoise keepers world wide with little tid-bits of knowledge)

The trouble with Andy seems to be an unwillingness to progress. He is lord and master to an institution of power and knowledge, he has known and acknowledged many important factors that greatly influence tortoise health, yet maintains the status quo, as there is not yet proof, and is unwilling to change until such proof is found.

Ed seems to be ruled by his instincts. He "knows" how to do it, without knowing "why" and as such cannot "prove" anything. He acknowledges often that his viewpoints are all theory, and could be wrong, take it as it is. For whatever reason he hates to repeat himself, and once a question is answered it is up to the researcher to find it. Trouble is the man is a prolific poster on many boards... trying to find the one cryptic, relevant post can be frustrating.

Danny is also cryptic. Seems to me he likes to tease us with a tidbit of the answer, so we'll do the thinking ourselves. A good teacher that way, but at times it can be very hard to try and interpret what he's really trying to say.

Their Theories on Pyramiding as best I've Gleaned to this Point:

1. Andy- Pyramiding and MBD are linked. Diet and Growth Rates are the primary factors and possibly influenced by environment. Humidity/Hydration can be used to "band aid" poor shell growth due to poor diet.

2. Ed- Pyramiding and MBD are NOT linked. Heat and Humidity/Hydration (Environment) are the primary factors and possibly influenced by diet.

3. Danny- Dehydration leads to organ damage which leads to internal health issues that present as pyramiding. That leads me to assume that Danny views Pyramiding as a form of MBD.

Now who's right?

None have "proof"

What little actual scientific study that does exist points to Ed being right. Andy disputes the credibility of this evidence, yet after years of research can present no "counter-evidence".

As the above linked thread held an actual debate between Ed and Andy it was an incredible find for me. Too bad Danny hadn't contributed.

At this time my understanding is that none of these three advocates "high" humidity. They all advocate "some" humidity and humid hides.

I'm fairly certain all three do however recognize the "Risk" involved with heat lamps, and the negative effect they can have on tortoise health, and may be partially responsible for pyramiding. As some of you know this has been an area of concern and research for Tom and I for a while now. It is fairly clear to me that although Andy is aware of this risk, he does not adequately address this issue in his cares suggestions.

What does Balboa take from all this research?
I'm currently still researching thermal differences between pyramided and smooth shells. If that turns out to have any import, that will likely affect my viewpoints.

The work of others and what evidence I've seen leads me to believe Ed is right, that environment plays the most crucial role in pyramiding. As much as I'd liek to side with Danny, it simply does not "make sense" to me that internal issues would have such a profound effect on carapace formation that is clearly focused around the most external components of a tortoise, the scutes. Andy has gone on greatly about how easy it is for scutes to become over dry, growth areas between scutes to get damaged by dehydration, etc.. As much as I am a big picture guy, what else do you need? Over 90% of captive torts are kept in overly dry, overly cool environments , where they spend a majority of time under heat lamps. Add to this the fact that scutes receive little wear in captivity, and thus become thicker, and thus even more rigid and inflexible and the problem is compounded. Once again that is an environmental failure.

Why then a link between pyramiding and MBD that Andy CAN statistically support (but not prove)?

A pyramided tortoise from being overly dry will also likely be a dehydrated tortoise. This can very well lead to the kind of internal damage that Danny is talking about, which can lead to MBD.

A pyramided tortoise requires greater quantities of calcium, phosphorous and D3 to build those pyramids. In their dehydrated and damaged state it can be difficult to process the necessary materials.

The high calcium, high oxalate diet (I've found several posts by Ed warning about this) suggested by most caresheets cannot be processed safely by dehydrated torts leading to internal stones, blockages, renal failures, whatever.

Inadequate light balance has a keen effect on behavior (Andy alluded to this as well in the thread) and is unfortunatly not yet well understood. Cool temps and the wrong light tell a tortoise to brumate. This can have a great impact on how and what they eat as well as activity levels which effect overall health.

Are the answers there? I think so, though it may not be proven exactly WHAT is key.

1. EMULATE THE ENVIRONMENT. The ACTUAL environment as experienced by the tort in the wild. Andy and Ed have both gone on and on about that, but both have failings admitted and not in how they accomplish this. Is it "ideal or adequate" is something expressed by Ed.

this means correct temps, humidity, light fall (spectrum and brightness), and physical constituents (they need rocks and logs and whatever kind of obstacles to wear their shells on, just like in nature)

you CANNOT heat air and maintain humidity levels without adding more water vapor, and this is crucial to understand. When you heat your 40 degree outside air to 60 in your home the humidity drops by at least half, then increase that to 80 in your table and you have 1/4, take it to 100 under that heat lamp 1/8.

water vapor rises. its lighter than air.

I believe its this lack of understanding of the physical nature of water in air that leads to so many problems, pyramiding, stones, etc.

2. Feed them as well balanced a diet as you can. I'm starting to think EJ (and others) may have a very good point about Mazuri. We cannot provide a natural diet, so how can we ensure that our selection of weeds and greens is correct? I'm thinking the smart course is some of both. As wild torts can have such a huge variablility of diet and still thrive (and humans too for that matter) I start to suspect that diet matters little, as long as it is not completely devoid of essential nutrients. That is why I'd rather feed more than less. Its easier to "pee away" or run off a little excess than try to make due on too little.

- IE, say the small feedings given a tort to "slow growth" contain enough of A but not enough of B to promote growth, the growth may continue but simply be B defficient. An excess of B on the otherhand "may" be sloughed off and healthy growth ensue. I already know many of you take the other viewpoint.

3. We may need to use an abrasive scrub on our tortoises. I have seen many times mentioned how thickening of the scutes may be a problem, but never a suggestion on how to deal with it. Perhaps a non-toxic paste could be made of some ingredients with a bit of pumice or sand in it, or maybe just a little emery cloth now and then.

Well that's not only enough but probably too much for now. I'm tired.

A Further Note on Danny's Take (as best I understand it at this point)

Quoted from my thread on Pyramiding as an Environmental Response

"The individual bones of the carapace can't pyramid as the seams of the bones don't follow the seams of the scutes (the scutes and the bones together are what make the carapace so ridgid). The scutes overlap most bone seams and any that don't (bone seams I'm talking here) run perpendicular to a scute seam. So to still be able to live, the bone (parts of different bones or one bone and parts of others) covered by a scute pyramid. This keeps the integrity of the carapace intact and lets the tortoise keep on living despite what has happened to the carapace."

I hate to say it, but from what I gather here Danny has a flawed image of the anatomy of a pyramided tortoise (and Danny please do correct me if I'm understanding you wrong). You seem to be stating here that the bone does not pyramid, just the scutes.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding?page=20

If we look at Mark's Pyramided Carapace the bones are clearly pyramided. Have you found evidence of pyramids formed entirely of keratin, or am I just totally missing the point?

I include Danny's take here (even though it might be OT per title) as I do consider Danny one of the most knowledgable there is, thus pertinent to the discussion and would love to pick his brain on everything I can.

At some points, (I can't recall if it was in the original topic thread or not) EJ has commented on a possibility that pyramids are formed as the scute locks the bone from growing correctly and it pushes "out" on the scute. Possibly he feels the dehydrated/damaged/whatever scute or scute margin is no longer able to grow/slide correctly due to lack of hydration.
 

Madkins007

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I liked the thread- thanks for posting it Balboa! I was interested in what to me was as much a matter of differing philosophy than anything else. EJ states he is a mechanic. He wants to attack problem A with procedure B and be done with it. Andy comes across as more of the engineer- he wants to know why problem A is arising so it can be dealt with at a more fundamental level- what can be re-engineered so it is not an issue any longer.

Andy wants data, Ed wants results. Neither has what some people would consider substantive proof.. Eventually, the thread sputters away into other issues and gets less interesting to me.

I have my own theories about pyramiding, but I lack the depth of experience or scientific training to make it much more than an idea in my mind. However, I must say I agree with Andy that the Fife and Weisner studies have a weakness in that they do not address structural or health issues AT ALL other than the smoothness of the outer layers of the shell. IF there is indeed poor bone density in every case of pyramiding, then that would seem to be the real problem- with the pyramids themselves being just one symptom. Does humidity address the bone issue, or just the visible symptom?

I loved how, around about page 11 or so, Andy made comments about the benefits of UVA in the pineal gland, etc. I was feeling pretty lonely saying that sort of thing without anyone else 'bigger' on the same page.
 

Balboa

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Madkins007 said:
I liked the thread- thanks for posting it Balboa! I was interested in what to me was as much a matter of differing philosophy than anything else. EJ states he is a mechanic. He wants to attack problem A with procedure B and be done with it. Andy comes across as more of the engineer- he wants to know why problem A is arising so it can be dealt with at a more fundamental level- what can be re-engineered so it is not an issue any longer.

Andy wants data, Ed wants results. Neither has what some people would consider substantive proof.. Eventually, the thread sputters away into other issues and gets less interesting to me.

I have my own theories about pyramiding, but I lack the depth of experience or scientific training to make it much more than an idea in my mind. However, I must say I agree with Andy that the Fife and Weisner studies have a weakness in that they do not address structural or health issues AT ALL other than the smoothness of the outer layers of the shell. IF there is indeed poor bone density in every case of pyramiding, then that would seem to be the real problem- with the pyramids themselves being just one symptom. Does humidity address the bone issue, or just the visible symptom?

I loved how, around about page 11 or so, Andy made comments about the benefits of UVA in the pineal gland, etc. I was feeling pretty lonely saying that sort of thing without anyone else 'bigger' on the same page.

Right with you on the UVA. In all honesty I think that is a largely underestimated factor in overall tortoise health. "Laymen" have a very simplistic concept of light, which is fine for the average person to just get by and do things, but does not allow them to grasp the concepts that their torts may need more than they are providing.
 

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You really do have to add food to the equation. It may not normally effect how a shell grows, but if you look at the recent post showing Laura's rescued sulcatas that were fed cat food you will see some pretty bad-looking shell growth.
 

Balboa

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emysemys said:
You really do have to add food to the equation. It may not normally effect how a shell grows, but if you look at the recent post showing Laura's rescued sulcatas that were fed cat food you will see some pretty bad-looking shell growth.

I don't want to pick on you Yvonne as you have to be one of the most sincere, caring, helpful people around , but this is a good example of how things can get confused on the subject.

I went back to look over Lauras threads to find out what you were talking about. Unless I missed some critical information there, yes she has some badly deformed sullies who were fed cat-food. How else were they kept? We know nothing, but I suspect as they lived on cat food, their other cares were equally lacking. What made the huge difference? Most folks will latch on to the one tidbit given, the cat food and think that made the difference.

If EJ is correct i suspect you can get away with feeding a sullie cat food. The Mazuri his critters live on exclusively is basically just cat food with a slightly different nutritional balance.

and oops, you are absolutely correct, I don't think anyone is ready to completely right off food at this point, some just lower its importance "on the scale".
 

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Balboa, that was great reading. Informative and entertaining. Its funny how, in my opinion, Andy doesnt exactly shoot down EJ's theory, its just that he wants scientific proof, wich EJ cant provide and round and round they go. I agree with madkins statement about smooth shells. There seems to be quite a bit of promotion of certain ways to raise tortoises, but without solid scientific proof how do we know we are doing right by our shelled companions. The methods people are now using to help promote smooth shell growth might be having adverse affects on the animals in other ways. Some might call it cheating. Over compinsating one aspect to make up for another. I'm with Danny on this one. We have to look at all aspects of tortoise husbandry as a whole in regards to pyramiding.
 

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So many points to make. Where to begin? A lot of this has been discussed here in the past, but we have a lot of new members, so it bears repeating.

1. ITS NOT DIET!!! For the last twenty years I've raised dozens of hatchlings of several species. All of them were fed the "magic" diet of the day, that according to the "experts" would prevent them from pyramiding. None of it worked. Ever. Not once. Not even a little. Not for any species. The "feed less and grow them slow" routine produces stunted, small, pyramided torts, IF they are not raised with moisture and humidity. Two cases: A friend in Florida was given a small slightly pyramided sulcata. He kept it in his back yard with no heat or shelter. He dug his own burrow for shelter. It grazed on whatever weeds and grass grew AND he would walk over to the back door and eat all the cats dry food daily. At 8 years old he was totally smooth and around 80-100 pounds. His internal organs might be in bad shape, but he looked great on the outside. Case two: An adult sulcata tort raised in a square, wooden, open topped box, under an outdoor shelter, near New Orleans. No heat and fed mostly handfuls of low quality dog food. Very smooth, but probably not very healthy. Contrast these two examples with all of mine that were fed the "correct" diet of the day, but raised here in the CA desert. The Austrian study also proves this. Now, years later, I'm feeding the same foods in the same quantities that I always have (with the exception of my three current adult sulcatas, which were fed less) and all 42 of my recently raised hatchlings are all growing smooth. What's the difference, you ask? Humidity, moisture and hydration.

2. Its not heat. The smoothest "desert" species of torts you'll ever see are raised outdoors in AZ, and live in self-dug burrows with no heat. They more or less "hibernate" over the cold periods of winter. Look at RV. Perfect example. She is super healthy and just as gorgeous as they come. It get just as cold in AZ as it does here, although not as often or for as long as it does here. I've seen other smooth torts raised with improper (not enough heat, by my estimation) heat. They were all in humid areas or had some sort of humidity.

3. Dehydration. I think it has a lot to do with "hatchling failure syndrome", but it just doesn't make any logical sense that it CAUSES pyramiding. I just can't make the leap from damaged kidneys and liver tissue to unnatural, symmetrical, protruding bone structures on the back. If the damaged organs somehow interfere with or hamper calcium assimilation, wouldn't you just get poorly formed or unformed bone, instead of perfectly formed and spaced, symmetrical cones?

4. I know now for sure that pyramiding IS all bone and the thin scute just covers the pyramided bone. You can see this in the pics of the pyramided desert tort that Yvonne posted. You can see this in my living female with the really bad pyramiding where the scute material is flaking off and you can clearly see the bone protruding through at the top of several of her tall pyramided scutes. I recently saw it again on a 10" mildly pyramided sulcata shell. Don't know how it died, but they had the shell sitting there with about half the scutes removed. The pyramided bone was just sitting there plain as day with no scute on top of it. I'll be doing a post on this later. I didn't have my camera, so I'll have to go back. The point is, that as Danny recently mentioned, the growing plates of bone have nothing to do with the pattern of keratinized scutes that we see. The bone plates underneath are totally differently shaped and sized than the overlying scutes and the suture lines do not even remotely line up with the scute edges. Yet the pyramided portion of the bone lines up perfectly with the pattern of scutes that they are born with. We are all familiar with the human skull and the squiggly suture lines that define the individual plates. Well the bone of a tortoises shell is kind of similar. Imagine if you put on a thin hat made of symmetrical rows of pentagonal shapes. The shapes and marginal lines of the shapes have nothing to do with the plates and suture lines of the skull bones underneath. Same thing with a tortoises shell. When you now consider that the pyramided portion of the bone is directly under the center of each scute, and completely symmetrical, evenly spaced in a set pattern, and of pretty uniform height, it should be obvious that something pertaining to the scute is CAUSING the bone directly underneath it to grow up and porous, instead of flat and dense.

5. "Emulating the environment". Sounds like a great idea. Problem is we don't know what the "natural" environment of babies is. AND our attempts to emulate it based on educated guesses have failed miserably. For 20+ years.

6. I completely agree with you on all the diet info. We simply cannot provide a diet that mimics a wild diet. We don't even know one plant that most of these torts eat in the wild. They probably eat from dozens of species of plants over the course of a year in the wild. Mazuri is cheap and easy insurance, even though we all strive to offer a good balance of "natural" foods.

7. The "abrasive scrub" idea is interesting, but like the insectivorous babies idea, I'm not ready to go there just yet.

Well those are some of my thoughts on the matter. Let the debating begin!
 

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The EJ vs AH thread was a good read. EJ has a way of posting where even if you agree with him or he agrees with you he will make it seem like he’s debating you, which is great because it helps prevent groupthink.

Pyramiding is a fun debate because if we take it as a unique problem from anything else we just do not know what causes it or what prevents it with proven assurance. I for one am back and forth on a few points. Right now I am of the mindset that a lot of things working all together create a HEALTHY unpyramided tortoise. I liked Andrew’s questionnaire on the 3rd page, I am keeping detailed records of the leopards I am keeping and raising and I’m sure and hope that Tom and others are. Hopefully this will get us further along with this debate, but until these animals are grown up, pyramiding is just further speculation, theories, debates, and experiments.

With regards to humidity, Onarock brought up a good point; how do we know we are doing right by our shelled companions? Most of us seem to accept that high amounts of humidity all the time will prevent pyramiding no matter what, but is this a Band-Aid on the problem? Or what new problems could possibly come about? I like how Andrew has offered to pay for radiograph to find out what is happening inside, I think once we get to what is REALLY going on inside the tortoise and theories are proven consistently we can make some firm conclusions. It seems EJ thinks it’s important, though on this forum he always said he keeps his bone dry.
 

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i don't get the guru list from what i have read the whole humidity thing was brought on by the fife brothers.and from what i red they have proven the theory.how do they not fit in here.highfield is dated and too be frank pirog continously contradicts himself.dan i only know what i've seen here all has been good.
 

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Humidity is just part of the debate. The Fife's didn't necessarily "bring on" the humidity aspect, they more brought it into a wider audience with their books and articles.
 

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squamata said:
i don't get the guru list from what i have read the whole humidity thing was brought on by the fife brothers.and from what i red they have proven the theory.how do they not fit in here.highfield is dated and too be frank pirog continously contradicts himself.dan i only know what i've seen here all has been good.

All good points. Worded a different way:

The Fife's have been producing dozens or hundreds smooth leopards and sulcatas for several years now. I don't know how much more "proof" there could be.

Highfield refuses to acknowledge what is obvious and right in front of his face.

Ed seems to have a lot of hard earned practical knowledge, but his personality quirks prevent him from sharing it very well. I wish there was something I could say to him to turn that fact around.

Danny, gives tidbits, but so far has been a bit cryptic. He drops some pretty heavy bombs, but then doesn't respond when asked for further clarification. I respect his knowledge and like him just the same.
 

John

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toms right on the wording my point on the fifes is simple they have a thoery,they state that theory,they show their work,and can present the results.everyone else is still speculating and debating.i myself would put them at the top of the guru list until the others can prove otherwise.
 

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Good call on the Fifes, and maybe they should make the list as well.

It was really a "personal" list for me, and while the Fifes have had a great impact on much I've learned it has largely been indirect. In other words, I have read little if any of their work, but I know they've influenced Tom, who's work has been a large part of my thinking.

I think Tom is working his way into the list as well for that matter.
 

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I'm flattered, Balboa, but I have a long way to go and much to accomplish before I'll consider myself in the company of the aforementioned crowd.
 

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Tom said:
I'm flattered, Balboa, but I have a long way to go and much to accomplish before I'll consider myself in the company of the aforementioned crowd.
I have to disagree tom what you are doing with your youngun' should be looked upon all as a good way to start and I think down the line people will be saying "I knew tom when he was a member of TFO"
 

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I would add Bill Zovickian and William Holmstrom
 

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onarock said:
I would add Bill Zovickian and William Holmstrom

I have heard those names, but do not know what they have contributed to tortoise knowledge and the advancement of better care. I personally have not learned anything directly from either of them that I know of.

What have they done besides breed really expensive and rare torts?
 

onarock

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I knew it Tom, you would be on here asking that very thing. Well I'm sure according to you that because neither one of them published anything related to keeping tortoises hot and humid, then not much. I dont want to hijack the thread so I will just say this. Some people here have mentioned "authors" and I have read their stuff. I have also had first hand contact with the two I mentioned and the info that I have received from them make some of these so called tortoise experst books read like "**** and Jane"
 
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