Pyramiding, Despite best efforts

[Kayti]

Here's my story, any advice would be greatly appreciated:

I have had Mona since about June of 2008. I bought her from a breeder who said she was born around March of 2007, which makes her about 2 years and eight months old. But I'm not exactly sure the breeder had her birth date right.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong, and she's definitely pyramiding now. Her "brother" Ed (I don't really know the sexes of either of them, or if they are 100% related) seems to be showing a little bit of pyramiding now too, but much less. I adopted him a little later than Mona, in August of the same year. He was smaller than her then, but now they are almost the same size.

I keep them together in a cement mixing bin in coconut husk, temps on the warm side are around 90F, and the cooler side is around 75F. I soak them once a day now, after I started noticing Mona's pyramiding, because I thought the moisture would help. (Before I soaked them every other day.) I try to keep their substrate moist, and I used to have a humid hide for them but I was having huge mold problems and decided it was unsafe. They have water available 24/7. I used to feed them a supermarket "spring baby greens" mix supplemented with dandelion and plantain and dandelion flowers, but I read recently that romain and spinach are not ideal, so I have switched to a 70% dandelion 30% mixed greens like escarole, chicory, endive, and watercress. They each get about 1 packed cup of greens a day. I supplement with Repticalcium and Reptivite now twice-weekly, but I have used TNT in the past. They usually have a cuttle bone available.
Over the summer, they lived in a planted kiddie pool outside (southern Oregon) all day, and came in at night.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong, and I feel really terrible and frustrated. Also, I have a friend who adopted from the same breeder around the same time I did, and her tortoises have not pyramided, and are also larger than mine. She feeds them chopped up lettuce, leaving a continuous supply available to them. Other than that, our care methods are pretty identical.

Mona the day I brought her home:

Mona, Today:

(She's giving me the reptile stink eye because I just woke her up)

I think it's most obvious in the above picture.

Edward, today:

Not as bad as Mona, but you can see it starting.

This is their current set-up:

What am I doing wrong?
Sorry this is such an epicly long post, thanks for reading.

 

[dmmj]

we know humidity is a main cause of pyramiding. That is pretty severe though for such a small tort IMHO.

 

[Yvonne G]

I would switch to cypress mulch.

 

[Kayti]

I would switch to cypress mulch.

Is cypress different than aspen or pine? I avoided wood as a substrate because I know they are really bad for rodents.

But I'll switch it asap, thank you for the advice.

 

[sammi]

What kind of torts do you have Kayti?

 

[Yvonne G]

I would switch to cypress mulch.

Is cypress different than aspen or pine? I avoided wood as a substrate because I know they are really bad for rodents.

But I'll switch it asap, thank you for the advice.

Aspen can't be moistened or it will mold, and pine has toxic oils that can harm the tortoise's eyes.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I could very well be wrong.. but I don't think there is a tort on the planet that doesn't seek out a warm-humid hide [place] of some sort.. especially during the first couple of years of life.

Mosser Lee moss works well for most all of the breeders' that I know.. for their "humid-hides"!

http://www.mosserlee.com/product/527_Long-FiberedSphagnumMoss.aspx

NERD

 

[GBtortoises]

Lack of proper humidity is likely a major cause of pyramiding but not the only cause. A combination of other contributing factors may also be: diet (too rich in vitamins), excessive use of vitamin supplements, excessive heat, an area too small for proper activity and exercise based on the size and number of animals in a given area.
In my opinion, based on the size of the tortoise in your hand in the photo, their enclosure is too small for one tortoise that size, never mind two. I think they may need a more spacious activity area.
You don't specify if the 90 & 75 degree temperature are only during the daytime or if the 90 degrees is during the day and the 75 degrees at night. Either way, if that is ambient air temperature it is too hot for Russians during the daytime and nighttime. Especially in an area that small. With a basking area available amibient surrounding temperatures don't need to be that warm. They don't appear to have a place to escape the heat and humid hide area would probably also make a large difference. By not being able to better regulate their body temperature they are constantly burning calories. One cup of greens a day per tortoise in an area that warm, with not much room to be active can only cause accelerated growth which is not good. Accelerated growth is when a tortoise grows at a faster rate than it would under normal conditions. This growth may show up as pyramiding, upturned shell edges, elongated beaks and longer than normal and sometimes oddly formed nails. Some tortoises have the appearance of looking as though they are "growing out of their shell".
It's good that you're providing water but Russian tortoises aren't normally big drinkers, at least not under normal temperatures, that is why a humid hide is very important. Russians also don't usually consume cuttlebone as much as some other Testudo species.

 

[Yvonne G]

The previous post by GBTortoises is very insightful and should be listened to by everyone who is raising a young Russian indoors.

 

[sammi]

Russians also don't usually consume cuttlebone as much as some other Testudo species.

Ahah! Thank you for that =] I always wondered why Ernie was never interested in his cuttlebone.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Good luck to you Kayti. It is good you are aware of the problem now and can work to get it resolved sooner rather than later. I wish I had done something sooner so that Taco would not be so deformed as she is now.

Some folks on this forum recommend to spray/pour, with a watering can, enough water into the substrate so that when you pick it up and squeeze it, it will stick together in a ball, but not drip water. That way the humidity will stay high enough to reduce/eliminate pyramiding. Another cool idea I saw here was to sew your peat moss into a muslin bag, so that it can be re-wet and wrung out often, and left in the hide to increase humidity.

You may also want to try one of the large plastic Christmas tree bins (on sale now at big box stores) as an inexpensive expanded enclosure for your Chelonian friends.

Best wishes!

 

[Kayti]

Thank you all so much for all your solid advice, I have a totally new plan of action now.

Key points:
1) New enclosure, much bigger. Does anyone know of anything bigger than a Xmas tree box? Or would that be big enough for the two of them? I’m going to go out and look at them tomorrow, but I am also looking into book shelves on Craigslist. I can’t afford a new one now, but used they are around $25 and they look pretty spacious.
2) Cypress bedding. The new plan is to keep half of it moist, half dry, so they can regulate themselves. In the past, I have only been spraying it ~3 times a day, and it always dries out. New plan is to add “enough water into the substrate so that when you pick it up and squeeze it, it will stick together in a ball, but not drip water” (thanks Stephanie). Would stirring it often help with keeping the mold away?
3) Humid hide with Sphagnum moss (thank you RF nerd). My old humid hides were made with sponges, which molded quickly. I have high hopes for the moss, hopefully it will work better!

GBtortoises- Thank you so much for all your help! I definitely agree with you that their enclosure is much too small. I justified it to myself because I only planned on keeping them in it while it is too cold outside, and also my boyfriend is really reluctant to have more of our room taken up by my pets. But, they need more space, so I’m going to make it happen.
1) I think it is possible that I have been over-dosing them on vitamins. How much is too much? Usually I add about as much (twice weekly) as you would sprinkle sugar on a waffle, if that’s any help.
2) I turn off the full spectrum bulb during the night, so only ceramic heater is on. It makes one side of the enclosure around 75F, the other a little less. The air around their enclosure is usually very cold, so I recently moved their hide to the warm side of the enclosure. I’ve always been so concerned with keeping them warm, I never thought I could be keeping them too warm. Do you think the addition of a moist hide and a bigger area for more temperature gradient will solve my problems with temperature?
3) I noticed that Ed, the less pyramided tortoise, does chow down on his cuttlebone. Maybe he is just strange

Sammi- I have these two Russians, and one Sulcata hatch-ling craigslist refugee. So far, her growth has been smooth, but I plan on switching her to cypress also, because she loves to dig and could probably use more moisture as well.
Again, thank you very much everyone, and I will update you all once I have the new set up going.

 

[Yvonne G]

I've been using cypress mulch for a while now, and in my experience it doesn't mold or turn sour. You have to keep the old food, poop and debris picked up, though. Those are what grows mold on them.

 

[Kayti]

I've been using cypress mulch for a while now, and in my experience it doesn't mold or turn sour. You have to keep the old food, poop and debris picked up, though. Those are what grows mold on them.

Perfect, then. Thanks!

How does this look size-wise for a new enclosure? (lined with something on the inside, of course)

http://medford.craigslist.org/fuo/1477958181.html

 

[dmmj]

If you are klooking for a bookcase freecycle is also a way to go.

 

[Kayti]

If you are klooking for a bookcase freecycle is also a way to go.

Thanks for the suggestion and I just checked, but for some reason my area has a pretty wimpy freecycle. I miss the city.

 

[Floof]

I just got my first tort this week, and she's a Russian, so I LOVED reading this thread... Sounds like really great advice, too!

Anyway, I just wanted to add that you can get big, cheap bookcases at Big Lots. I have one that I bought, pre-assembled (they were taking down the display, I guess) for $20. I'm in the middle of retrofitting it for my tort, and it's 5'10" tall (long), 23.5" wide, and 9.5" deep--all measurements taken on the inside. Nice and big, albeit not very deep. If you try it, it's the 5-shelf enclosure. I also have one from Walmart (MainStay???), also a 5 shelf, that was (I think) $30 unassembled. It's the same height as the Big Lots one, only much deeper and maybe a bit wider. The only fault with this one is the fixed middle shelf can't be removed without splitting the bookcase completely in half, unless you cut out the shelf or simply cut a large hole in it (which I've thought about already; I would have used it and done this myself, but it already "belongs" to a bunch of corn snake hatchlings).

Good luck!!!

 

[Kayti]

Thank you Floof! I don't know why I'm wasting my time on these stingy craigslisters- I'll just go buy a new one tomorrow.

I was thinking on lining mine with a tarp (for now) because they're nice and cheap, and that will protect the wood until I can afford something more permanent. I'll let you all know how my construction goes tomorrow.

I'm aiming for something about 5-6 feet long, and 2-3 feet wide, does that sound big enough?

 

[-EJ]

Hey... don't take this personal... but when I read this my first thoughts were... BS... BS... BS. There is absolutely no evidence to support any of this opinion. I highly suspect that this is not your opinion.

Yes... nutrition does play a good part but to single out what part of nutrition is impossible.

The size of the enclosure is definately not a major factor.

I can't help but think this is a cut and paste from an 'organization' we all know and love.

To the OP... what are you feeding the tortoise. The set up looks acceptable which leads me to question the diet... or... the tortoises eating habits.

Lack of proper humidity is likely a major cause of pyramiding but not the only cause. A combination of other contributing factors may also be: diet (too rich in vitamins), excessive use of vitamin supplements, excessive heat, an area too small for proper activity and exercise based on the size and number of animals in a given area.
In my opinion, based on the size of the tortoise in your hand in the photo, their enclosure is too small for one tortoise that size, never mind two. I think they may need a more spacious activity area.
You don't specify if the 90 & 75 degree temperature are only during the daytime or if the 90 degrees is during the day and the 75 degrees at night. Either way, if that is ambient air temperature it is too hot for Russians during the daytime and nighttime. Especially in an area that small. With a basking area available amibient surrounding temperatures don't need to be that warm. They don't appear to have a place to escape the heat and humid hide area would probably also make a large difference. By not being able to better regulate their body temperature they are constantly burning calories. One cup of greens a day per tortoise in an area that warm, with not much room to be active can only cause accelerated growth which is not good. Accelerated growth is when a tortoise grows at a faster rate than it would under normal conditions. This growth may show up as pyramiding, upturned shell edges, elongated beaks and longer than normal and sometimes oddly formed nails. Some tortoises have the appearance of looking as though they are "growing out of their shell".
It's good that you're providing water but Russian tortoises aren't normally big drinkers, at least not under normal temperatures, that is why a humid hide is very important. Russians also don't usually consume cuttlebone as much as some other Testudo species.

 

[GBtortoises]

Ed-"Hey...don't take this personal...but when I read this my first thoughts were...BS...BS...BS."

So which part should I not take "personal"? The "BS...BS...BS." Or the part where you acuse me of stealing information without credit from "an organization we all know and love"? Which by the way I don't even know which organization that you are referring to.

First of all of the information that I state is my own opinion, based on a combination of experience and from reading pages and pages of writings of other peoples work over the years. My opinion and experience are by no means the gospel of tortoise keeping. Many people have different methods, when I write I am expressing the methods that have worked for me for 25+ years. My opinions are based on those methods. Other people have other methods that work well for them, they state them and that's good, it's how we learn. If I ever do quote someone else's opinion or work I make it a point to say so. So if you feel that I have plagiarized material please point out where I got it from. Because if I have I was not aware of doing so, nor have I intentionally done so.

I did not say that the size of the enclosure is a major factor. I said that it is a contributing factor and it is. As are the other contributing factors. If you place an animal (including human) in consistently warmer than normal temperatures without escape from it which increases it's activity level, feed it constantly and give it little room to move about or exercise it will not burn the excessive calories accumulated. The body must then use or store that energy somehow. Without proper activity the calories are not burned, they're stored.

I do believe that diet, both quantity and quality play a part in tortoise growth, development and health, (as do many other factors). But since you have commented that you "question the diet... or... the tortoises eating habits". Please elaborate and enlighten.

To everyone that reads this: I apologize for for wasting the above space to defend my character. This is not the proper forum in which to do so and it is my "opinion" that there is no reason to have to do so on a site like this one. But when someone questions my honesty I cannot be silent.