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Pyramiding in tortoises with Metabolic Bone Disease

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Yvonne G

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I thought I would start a new thread on this topic and place some pictures for you all to see.

Don Williams of the Bakersfield chapter of CTTC had two empty shells and he cut them apart to take a look at the effects of pyramiding. Here's the two shells before he cut:



The pyramided shell on the right, shows just a mild form of pyramiding.
This is that shell with a cut off portion:



If you look closely at the inside of the carapace, you can see that the inside of the bumps goes up into the bump that shows on the outside..

Here's a view of a cut off section of the normal carapace:



My Dudley is now a little over 100lbs and 20 years old. When I first got him at 35lbs his pyramiding was worse than the tortoise shown here in these shots. He shows no ill effects from the pyramiding and the growth since living here has been smooth. I don't think this is going to adversely effect his life. However, if a heavy object were to fall on him, I imagine his carapace wouldn't be as strong as a normal sulcata the same size having that object fall on him. But under normal circumstances and in a normal life, I think he will live a long time.

Yvonne
 

Meg90

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RE: pyramiding

Really great pictures Yvonne. I am glad you posted this, it helps everyone SEE what really happens when an animal is pyramided. Because, yes, usually it is only cosmetic when caught early, but it has the potential to be detrimental as well.

thanks for posting.
 

Isa

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RE: pyramiding

Very interesting Yvonne,
Thank you so much for posting this. Someone should stick this thread, it is very important to see what pyramiding can do to a tortoise.
 

micki

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RE: pyramiding

good post Yvonne, useful pics as well.
 

Tom

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RE: pyramiding

I'm not clear on this.

General tort question: Scutes are keratinus growth on top of flat bone, right? This is what I've always thought and that's what it looks like in the first pic. You can see the flat, skeletal bone where some scutes have been removed.

Question 2: Pyramiding then, is abnormal, upward growth of the keratinus scutes, right? From the pics it looks like the keratin forming the scute is less dense and has "air" pockets in it, but the bone underneath seems normal.

Do I have this wrong? This is why I think MBD and pyramiding are two totally different things. You can certainly have both problems in the same tort, but they are two independent problems with different causes.

Can anyone recommend a good tortoise anatomy book?
 

allegraf

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RE: pyramiding

Thanks for the pics! That is fascinating stuff!
 

Yvonne G

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RE: pyramiding

In the second picture, there is no scute material over the slice of bone. The porous section you see is actually the bone. If there were a scute on the bone, it would look like a lump on the outside, but a cut off side view would look perfectly normal.
 

Stephanie Logan

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RE: pyramiding

Sorry, but this stuff makes me cringe...the truth hurts!

I'm still hoping Roachman is right and a well-kept pyramided tortoise can still lead a long and comfortable life. The fact that "only time will tell" is my purgatory.
 

-EJ

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RE: pyramiding

I wonder about people who post information out of context. Dons photos show nothing.

First, the cuts you are showing are in totally different areas. One of those areas is normally porous and one of those areas is normally dense.

Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?

All I can offer is a sigh and hope the readers of this trash do some research of their own.
 

Yvonne G

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RE: pyramiding

-EJ said:
Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?
Thanks for the accusation, Ed. I don't knowingly misinform anyone. Instead of accusing, can't you provide a better picture or explanation?
 

Stephanie Logan

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RE: pyramiding

-EJ said:
I wonder about people who post information out of context. Dons photos show nothing.
First, the cuts you are showing are in totally different areas. One of those areas is normally porous and one of those areas is normally dense.
Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?
All I can offer is a sigh and hope the readers of this trash do some research of their own.
I have been a good girl and reported your post instead of typing something to express my feelings about this ABUSE.
 

Tom

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RE: pyramiding

-EJ said:
I wonder about people who post information out of context. Dons photos show nothing.

First, the cuts you are showing are in totally different areas. One of those areas is normally porous and one of those areas is normally dense.

Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?

All I can offer is a sigh and hope the readers of this trash do some research of their own.

EJ, please let us know where to go too find "real" info. on this subject. I obviously do want to learn, but I'm limited to magazines, old, out-dated books and reptile shows. I've been researching this topic since the early nineties and haven't gotten very far, until very recently. I learned about this forum a couple of weeks ago and its been a great source of info.

Please share what you know and help erase all the ignorance(especially mine) associated with this subject.
 

-EJ

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RE: pyramiding

It's not an accusation... it's a fact.

You're posting misinformation... which has been covered at length.

I'll get around to posting a better photo... one day.

emysemys said:
-EJ said:
Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?
Thanks for the accusation, Ed. I don't knowingly misinform anyone. Instead of accusing, can't you provide a better picture or explanation?
 

Stephanie Logan

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RE: pyramiding

-EJ said:
It's not an accusation... it's a fact.
You're posting misinformation... which has been covered at length.
I'll get around to posting a better photo... one day.
Why wait? You didn't hesitate to offer pointed criticism.

Now it's time to ante up, or apoligize if you've misplaced your proof.
 

Yvonne G

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RE: pyramiding

-EJ said:
Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?
Ed: THIS is the accusation part of your post.
 

-EJ

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RE: pyramiding

If you'd like to read it that way.

I'm not making an accusation... I'm stating outright.

It is a fact that pyramiding IS NOT a sighn of MBD.

I'll restate what I usually state... A tortoise with MBD is sometimes pyramided. You can have a perfectly healthy tortoise that has pyramiding.

Would you agree with what I'm stating?


emysemys said:
-EJ said:
Do you enjoy misinforming the people who are looking for real information?
Ed: THIS is the accusation part of your post.
 

Yvonne G

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RE: pyramiding

Ed: You implied that I enjoy posting the wrong information. I would be the first person to admit it if I found out that what I said was wrong. But so far you haven't proved to me that my original post IS wrong.[hr]
-EJ said:
If you'd like to read it that way.

I'm not making an accusation... I'm stating outright.

It is a fact that pyramiding IS NOT a sighn of MBD.

I'll restate what I usually state... A tortoise with MBD is sometimes pyramided. You can have a perfectly healthy tortoise that has pyramiding.

Would you agree with what I'm stating?
Ok Ed...apples and oranges. Go back and re-read my original post. Did I say anyplace in that post that this is what MBD looks like?
 

bettinge

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RE: pyramiding

emysemys said:
Ed: You implied that I enjoy posting the wrong information. I would be the first person to admit it if I found out that what I said was wrong. But so far you haven't proved to me that my original post IS wrong.
Not to mention that I don't feel anyone is knowingly posting misinformation here on the forum, let alone enjoying it. Relax Yvonne, I have been accused of posting misinformation myself! It rubs you the wrong way, dosen't it? It does me!
 

Yvonne G

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RE: pyramiding

bettinge said:
Relax Yvonne, I have been accused of posting misinformation myself! It rubs you the wrong way, dosen't it? It does me!
I've been called on posting the wrong information lots of times by Danny. But it never bothered me because he let me know how I was wrong. This one is just way out there. If my pictures are wrong, then I'll certainly apologize, but I don't think they are and I haven't been shown yet how they are wrong.
 

-EJ

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RE: pyramiding

If you read the original post you will see that the entire post leads one to believe that pyramiding causes the porous bone development... this is wrong... nuf said.
 
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