Pyramiding in tortoises with Metabolic Bone Disease

[-EJ]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

So... all those Tent Tortoises, Leopards and Stars that are found in the wild with some from of pyramiding... all... have MBD?

Please... do not say that it is species specific. They all pretty much have the same physiology. What might differ in those species is their habits and available habitat. Not all of those species have pyramiding which has to make you give it a little thought.

Again... if you are referring to the examples given both have a bone deficiency. I would like to thank you for the new word...osteopenia... that is probably the case in the 'normal' looking shell.

The only relationship pyramiding has to MBD is that a good majority of tortoises which have MBD are usually pyramided... not always. Not all pyramided tortoises have MBD. I don't point this out for arguments sake but for the sake of the owners of tortoises that do have some pyramiding to some extent or another.

One more time... you can have perfectly normal bone density and still have pyramiding. This is an important point that the new keeper needs to understand.

I doubt that you can have normal bone denisty while still having pyramiding, bone density has to do with calcium content of the bone (like osteoporosis, you diagnose it by measuring bone denisty and seeing that it is lower than normal bone)
in pyramiding as the posted pictures show, the new bone tissue is not of normal structure so it's density is less than a normal bone (or shell), that's why you see gaps and air pockets in the pyramiding shell ( so it's density is much less than a normal shell).

 

[TortoiseMD]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

So... all those Tent Tortoises, Leopards and Stars that are found in the wild with some from of pyramiding... all... have MBD?

Please... do not say that it is species specific. They all pretty much have the same physiology. What might differ in those species is their habits and available habitat. Not all of those species have pyramiding which has to make you give it a little thought.

Again... if you are referring to the examples given both have a bone deficiency. I would like to thank you for the new word...osteopenia... that is probably the case in the 'normal' looking shell.

The only relationship pyramiding has to MBD is that a good majority of tortoises which have MBD are usually pyramided... not always. Not all pyramided tortoises have MBD. I don't point this out for arguments sake but for the sake of the owners of tortoises that do have some pyramiding to some extent or another.

Thanks for your information, I am not trying to argue here, I am just trying to get the correct information out.
I was not speaking to MBD vs pyramiding, I merely was clarfiying your post that said that in pyramiding you have normal bone density, I simply disagree because both MBD and pyramiding have some abnormal bone formation and that alters the bone chararcteristics and it is no longer of normal denisty.
I also think you might be right about that pyramiding might not be due to lack of calcium, but again who knows, there is a lot to be learned about tortoises, and there is no clear scientific information available nor any verifiable studies about these diseases and its cause in tortoises.

I think there is a lot to learn

One more time... you can have perfectly normal bone density and still have pyramiding. This is an important point that the new keeper needs to understand.

I doubt that you can have normal bone denisty while still having pyramiding, bone density has to do with calcium content of the bone (like osteoporosis, you diagnose it by measuring bone denisty and seeing that it is lower than normal bone)
in pyramiding as the posted pictures show, the new bone tissue is not of normal structure so it's density is less than a normal bone (or shell), that's why you see gaps and air pockets in the pyramiding shell ( so it's density is much less than a normal shell).

 

[-EJ]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

So this is an opinion on your part. You also didn't explane how you can have normal healthy pyramided tortoises in the wild.

This is an argument... sorry. It is a common misconception that all pyramided tortoises have MBD.

As you learn more about tortoises you will see that you can have very healthy bone density in pyramided tortoises.

I doubt that you can have normal bone denisty while still having pyramiding, bone density has to do with calcium content of the bone (like osteoporosis, you diagnose it by measuring bone denisty and seeing that it is lower than normal bone)
in pyramiding as the posted pictures show, the new bone tissue is not of normal structure so it's density is less than a normal bone (or shell), that's why you see gaps and air pockets in the pyramiding shell ( so it's density is much less than a normal shell).

 

[TortoiseMD]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Thanks for your input.

 

[-EJ]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

You're welcome.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Annieski]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

I think there is one more thing that has to be considered here-- To produce healty bone tissue--- calcium is not the only mineral substance that is necessary. But it is the BALANCE of the calcium and the other minerals, and how they work with on another to make healthy new cells. Deficiency in another mineral can make all the calcium in the world ineffective and visa-versa.

 

[tjm1302]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

QUESTION... the slider I was given last night > is eight years old and the same size as my 2 year old. Her shell has pyramiding. Will her shell continue to develop now I have her in a proper environment and feeding her what she needs (they only fed her turtle pellets and kept her in a fish bowl in the bathroom!!!!)

 

[Stephanie Logan]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

I don't know if this applies to turtles, but with tortoises there is no way to erase the pyramids they have already developed.

However, you can ensure that all remaining growth is healthy and smooth by providing her with a proper diet, and the right temperatures and humidity.

 

[TORTOISES2010]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

what can we do to stop ( or fix ) pyramiding on tortoise ? I'm new...please help...

 

[Tom]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Welcome to the forum.

Take a look at this thread. It is still very debatable. The truth is no one knows for sure, but several of us have ideas about it. After a few more years of trial and error, I think we will have a definitive answer.

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13106.html

 

[Annieski]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

There is one more point I would like to throw in--- the scutes we are talking about for the pryamiding is actually equal to "our" skin and fingernails[or horses hooves]. Keratin is the substance which keeps it growing and healthy. Keratin is a PROTEIN. Functional Keratin comes in 2 forms--soft keratin=skin hard keratin=nails or in this case scutes. Too much protein= increased keratin production= pryamiding scutes [not MBD] The two are different, even though you can have both at the same time.

 

[-EJ]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

This is extremely false and there is absolutely no evidence to support this.

Yes... keritin is a type of protein but excess protein (whateverer that is) does not cause the overgrowth of keratin.

You've actually added a third unrelated factor although I've yet to see the evidence to support that 'too much' protein leads to the overproduction of keritin.

There is one more point I would like to throw in--- the scutes we are talking about for the pryamiding is actually equal to "our" skin and fingernails[or horses hooves]. Keratin is the substance which keeps it growing and healthy. Keratin is a PROTEIN. Functional Keratin comes in 2 forms--soft keratin=skin hard keratin=nails or in this case scutes. Too much protein= increased keratin production= pryamiding scutes [not MBD] The two are different, even though you can have both at the same time.

 

[Annieski]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Pyramiding, or pyramidal growth syndrome is a condition in which the scutes take on a conical shape. This condition has been associated with feeding excessive protein, inadequate calcium, low fiber, and other dietary excesses or deficiencies.
Scutes: The shells are covered with a layer of keratin (the same type of material that makes up our fingernails or horses' hooves). The keratin is arranged in patches called scutes, or shields. The carapace usually has 38 scutes, and the plastron, twelve to fourteen. The names and numbers of the scutes roughly correspond to the adjacent bones and body portions. The scutes, however, do not precisely overlap the bones. Instead, they are staggered, which helps give the shell more rigidity.
This is an extraction from the WCT website:
Information I heard about at the Herpfest states that the captive diet of hatchlings is going to be excessive and cause pyramiding, no matter what. It has has come to light that a hatchling's yolk sac produces nourishment for upwards of 9 months to a YEAR in the wild. A study on desert tortoises was done (I think this'll be presented soon, and I know CTTC had a speaker, a graduate student, who did research on this and the conclusions are amazing). Since protein occurs in both plant and animal matter, the bumpiness would cover all terrestrial species who are fed by attentive keepers, me included, if the yolk is also providing nourishment.

My herbivore hatchlings are fairly bumpy--perhaps from all those greens and weeds, while my three-toed box turtle hatchlings are perfectly formed because of their primarily-nightcrawler diet; they nibble at veggies, but prefer the live stuff. The general perception is that hatchlings need to eat often to grow to a size that allows them to ossify (harden) and protect themselves from possible predators. But if the yolk sac resorbs where we can't see it and continues to provide nourishment like it seems to do for Desert tortoise hatchlings, is it a regional adaptation, or--and this is more likely--is it applicable to all terrestrial/semi-aquatic animals?
EJ,
This is some of the info I've been reading. I believe it makes some sense of this question about pryamiding and MBD. You can say something is false-- as long as there is 100% proof. If there was one clearcut answer-- we wouldn't need to ponder it anymore.

 

[Madkins007]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Annieski- there have been studies done on tortoises that indicate that a major contributer to pyramiding is humidity, and protein levels of the foods play a rather small roll. I'll take the studies over the theories.

Fife, Richard. “Pyramiding in Tortoises” Reptiles Magazine (Archived at http://www.animalnetwork.com/reptiles/detail.aspx?aid=20864&cid=596&search= I am not sure this link still works)

Weisner, C. S. and Iben, C. "Influence of Environmental Humidity and Dietary Protein on Pyramidal Growth of Carapaces of African Spurred Tortoises (Geochelone sulcata)" Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition 87 (2003), p.66-74 (You can often find this on-line as well)

The last one is the most interesting as it was supposed to prove that protein was the problem, but it discovered that it played a very small role.

There are certainly other factors that contribute, but the idea that protein is the primary villain seems rather iffy nowadays.

 

[jackrat]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Skin is not keratin,it is made of living cells.Keratin (fingernails ) are dead cells,just like hair.

 

[Annieski]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Annieski- there have been studies done on tortoises that indicate that a major contributer to pyramiding is humidity, and protein levels of the foods play a rather small roll. I'll take the studies over the theories.

Fife, Richard. “Pyramiding in Tortoises” Reptiles Magazine (Archived at http://www.animalnetwork.com/reptiles/detail.aspx?aid=20864&cid=596&search= I am not sure this link still works)

Weisner, C. S. and Iben, C. "Influence of Environmental Humidity and Dietary Protein on Pyramidal Growth of Carapaces of African Spurred Tortoises (Geochelone sulcata)" Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition 87 (2003), p.66-74 (You can often find this on-line as well)

The last one is the most interesting as it was supposed to prove that protein was the problem, but it discovered that it played a very small role.

There are certainly other factors that contribute, but the idea that protein is the primary villain seems rather iffy nowadays.

I'm not saying protien is the only problem---but I don't think excessive protien in the diet is given enough value in the cause of the problem.

---

Skin is not keratin,it is made of living cells.Keratin (fingernails ) are dead cells,just like hair.

It is called "functional keratin" while in the "active state" of a living cell. When the cells reach the surface layer, that is when they die and also harden to form the" protective" surface layer such as fingernails or horse hooves. This is why a "just hatched" reptile with a shell is relatively soft.

 

[Madkins007]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

I'm not saying protien is the only problem---but I don't think excessive protien in the diet is given enough value in the cause of the problem.

---

---

You really should read the reports and studies before you say such a thing. Weisner's article states "The results presented indicate that the level of dietary protein is probably not the main cause of PGS (pyramidal growth syndrome)"

I've been to a bunch of herp talks, been to a bunch of sites, heard a bunch of theories, and so on- but I really prefer to find real research when possible.

 

[Annieski]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

I apologise for posting my thoughts on this topic--based on the articles I've read [most of the sites were recommended reading from this forum]. I am relatively new to reptiles and my medical backround is based in Human Anatomy and Physiology. I will continue to read what I can and leave the thinking and research to the more learned. Thank You for your thoughts and info.

 

[Yvonne G]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Annieski:

Your thoughts are always welcome...no apology required or necessary. Please continue to participate in these debates.

One thing to remember...most of the findings that come up in web searches are very old and haven't been updated. The humidity/pyramiding thing is quite new and doesn't show up in very many web searches.

 

[Annieski]

RE: pyramiding with MBD

Yvonne, I appreciate your response. I think my "skin" needs to get as hard as Mortimer's shell.I haven't been questioning new thinking or research---many things would not be without progress and moving forward. I just don't think you should toss the "old" thinking before the "new" works atleast 95% of the time. Thank you anyway.