Pyramiding is due to excess Heat, not lack of Humidity?

Tom

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Tom. Do you think the forced soaking can be over done?

There is no force involved in my tortoise soaking, so I reject that polarizing term.

Yes soaking can be over done. If you left a tortoise in water 24/7, I think that would be too much. Daily soaks for an hour, can do no harm.
 

Tom

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Um... the Sahel region, native to Sulcatas and Leopards, has significant night temperature drops year round. Average temperature drops from daytime 28C to 14C at night in the winter months.

The study did not say anything about room temperature or not feeding them, I don't know what you're on about.

Control group was raised mostly outside under the sun, indoors when need be at 30C, overnight at 19C, with humidity around 30%, and they did not pyramid.


Show me a study that says it gets any where near 14 degrees C in an underground sulcata burrow in the Sahel region.

THAT is what I'm on about. More "science" that contradicts years of what we already know and thousands of successful examples to the contrary.
 

Tom

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Um... the Sahel region, native to Sulcatas and Leopards, has significant night temperature drops year round. Average temperature drops from daytime 28C to 14C at night in the winter months.

The study did not say anything about room temperature or not feeding them, I don't know what you're on about.

Control group was raised mostly outside under the sun, indoors when need be at 30C, overnight at 19C, with humidity around 30%, and they did not pyramid.

I'm looking at the current weather in 6 cities that are closest to the current existing known range of the sulcata, according to "The Crying Tortoise". Been following the weather in these areas since 2011. The five day forecast shows daytime highs from 99F to 107F over the next five days. Nighttime lows, 2 meters above ground at these weather recording stations, are listed from a low of 69 in Matam to as high as 82 in Nyala.

Tell me. When your outdoor temps mimic these temps in summer here in North America, what is the overnight low in your underground sulcata bunkers? Mine don't get down to 14C. Mine don't drop below 26C.
 

Yvonne G

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Not arguing, Tom, but just giving you something to think about. No one knows where the baby sulcatas are. But my GUESS is that they aren't down in burrows, but rather more above ground, under bushes, rocks, etc. So the drop in nighttime temp and dew theory might hold some merit???

(and please be consistent in your farenheit/celcius quotes for those of us who have to Google the exchange)
 

motero

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I like faster growth! And hydration is still key to them growing smooth. Have them redo the study with high humidity, water dishes, and daily soaks. I bet they would all turn out smooth and the ones with night time heat would be larger, stronger, and pass out of the fragile hatchling stage sooner. It is nice to see people trying to figure out how to better care for tortoises, we need a lot more studies like this by the "Scientists" every study is an eye opener and we can learn from it. Ill keep growing mine smooth and fast and hydrated.
 

Tom

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Not arguing, Tom, but just giving you something to think about. No one knows where the baby sulcatas are. But my GUESS is that they aren't down in burrows, but rather more above ground, under bushes, rocks, etc. So the drop in nighttime temp and dew theory might hold some merit???

(and please be consistent in your farenheit/celcius quotes for those of us who have to Google the exchange)

Fair enough, but did anyone need a study to tell us that if you raise a baby sulcata in a dry enclosure with no substrate on a heat mat that it would pyramid? I didn't.

What value does that have? Is anyone ever going to raise one that way?

New subject: Lets talk about cold night temps. How many babies have you seen come down with RIs due to cold temps, even back in the old days when we kept them dry on rabbit pellets with no water bowl? I've seen lots.
 

Tom

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I like faster growth! And hydration is still key to them growing smooth. Have them redo the study with high humidity, water dishes, and daily soaks. I bet they would all turn out smooth and the ones with night time heat would be larger, stronger, and pass out of the fragile hatchling stage sooner. It is nice to see people trying to figure out how to better care for tortoises, we need a lot more studies like this by the "Scientists" every study is an eye opener and we can learn from it. Ill keep growing mine smooth and fast and hydrated.

Good points. Very good way to look at this.
 

Markw84

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I think the conclusions of this study are flawed or being overstated in the post...

They did not say the control group was smooth at all. There was simply a slightly greater pyramid height measurable in the heated group - 0.05 - which is measurable but very slight.

They did not state the growth differences in the groups, except the heat promoted faster growth.

More growth would also lead to the pyramid growing proportionately more - which is what they found. 0.05 is not much and I would bet the heated group grew much more than 0.05 larger in overall growth. So why wouldn't the pyramid expected grow more as well - since they were growing both groups in dry conditions that we know would promote pyramiding - whether fast or slow??

If they want to conclude heat as an isolated factor will contribute to pyramiding, they need to show they need to show the control group grew SMOOTHER, not just that their pyramiding grew LESS. The whole control group grew less overall.
 

Yvonne G

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They did not say the control group was smooth at all.

See? That was the point I was trying to make. I wanted to see pictures of the smoother tortoises. But I'll bet they were just not as pyramided as the other group.

.
 

Merrick

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This needs to be tested by more than one group to gather data from a larger pool also one with cooler temp torts like testudos
 

DutchieAmanda

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If relative humidity was the same, but the temps were lower in the control group, the absolute humidity was higher. Warm air can hold more moisture. So although relative humidity was the same, absolute humidity differed between groups. Could also be a factor maybe?
 

domalle

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There were side by side photos comparing the control to the treatment groups included in the paper.
The results are clear and worthy of consideration.
How many times have I seen posts on the forum decrying veteran keeper resistance to new information?
Thank you, AMMG.
 

keepergale

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Is this a picture of the cooler slow growers on the left and the warmer fast growers in the right?
 

Kapidolo Farms

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It is not a threshold study IMO. It is a semi indication that a better study could shed some light, but I bet we will never see that better study, as most will read it critically and that will end further interest. But I also think that of the now famous "Austrian" study, is only a good indication.

Lots of these studies seem to be a way to 'doing something' with readily available resources (grad students) and a quirky sense of inquiry. My wife is much better at evaluating study design, and her comment on the Austrian study was that they didn't do a good job setting up their variables. I have not talked her into reading this newer study. I predict her first comment would be "No substrate?"

That they are all treated the same is not the same thing as they are all equal in evaluation. The outside time was not well enough monitored. Could be the warm or cool animals exploited that resource in a way that is the variable resulting in the difference, not the night time heat. They should have been left in the one enclosure 24/7, been held in smaller groups for replication but counted such that pseudo-replication could creep into the analysis.

I work on dozens of live animal experiments where all is held constant but one variable. These guys had too many things going on at once and to many mystery (compounded) factors can account for the result.

One simple thing to reduce these potential compounding matters would have been to feed a single commercial pellet. Then it's just quantity consumed as a mystery variable. Feed them all individually twice a day and watch actual food consumption quantity, and then I might start to be a believer. If there was a significant difference in one groups consumption to the other that might be backed out, or it may be the explanation in combination with the night time temp.

Like any profession @Tom there are good ones better ones and then the left side of the bell curve. I bet you know a few animal trainers that aren't so good too. That doesn't mean they are all on the left side of the curve. Please don't besmirch all science because of a loose study here and there.
 

Tom

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Like any profession @Tom there are good ones better ones and then the left side of the bell curve. I bet you know a few animal trainers that aren't so good too. That doesn't mean they are all on the left side of the curve. Please don't besmirch all science because of a loose study here and there.

I would never besmirch all science. I'm a fan of science. What I besmirch is people looking for evidence to support a claim while ignoring the obvious mountain of evidence right in front of them.

I appreciate you pointing out the obvious flaws in this study.

My point is this: Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. How does that relate to this study? Forced slow growth due to lack of food or inappropriately low temperatures for a given species results in slower pyramiding. Worded another way: No growth = No pyramiding. Faster growth = Faster pyramiding.

… I really need to invest the time to read this study.
 

Cowboy_Ken

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Beyond purely a cosmetic deformity, carapacial scute pyramiding (CSP) is of concern for tortoise health based on compromise of the associated neurologic, musculoskeletal, and internal organ structures of affected animals.
@AMMG IS NOT TO BE TAKEN AS THE ADVOCATE FOR THIS HERE REPORT! Simply the the passer on of the information to us. AMMG should not feel the need to defend nor agree with this fun and stimulating information anymore than I should feel the need to defend COORS ORIGINAL as the proper beer to drink. Just simply saying, Take it personally easy on AMMG for bringing this study to our attention.
On a personal note, thanks AMMG for the heads up.
 

wellington

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Beyond purely a cosmetic deformity, carapacial scute pyramiding (CSP) is of concern for tortoise health based on compromise of the associated neurologic, musculoskeletal, and internal organ structures of affected animals.
@AMMG IS NOT TO BE TAKEN AS THE ADVOCATE FOR THIS HERE REPORT! Simply the the passer on of the information to us. AMMG should not feel the need to defend nor agree with this fun and stimulating information anymore than I should feel the need to defend COORS ORIGINAL as the proper beer to drink. Just simply saying, Take it personally easy on AMMG for bringing this study to our attention.
On a personal note, thanks AMMG for the heads up.
I 1000% agree with this. Appreciate the effort of the OP for passing this study on. Remember, it's not their personal study and it gives more to think about and to realize more needs to be figured out. Also, nothing works 100% of the time, I have a hatchling to prove it. I believe there is much more in play then what has been studied and tested.
 

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