Questions about PP founders and breeders.

[samkerns1]

It seems like several PP breeders (esp. Will, Tom, diamondbp) here are very knowledgable about their animals' lineages. I've been reading various posts and am trying to piece together the info.
Are there 3 main founder groups? How do you all choose which F1 to breed? Do you cooperate with each other to prevent inbreeding? Do you provide lineage info to buyers?
The more I read about all this, the more interested I'm becoming.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I've scraped together a source chart that is not well agreed upon. Public agreement and private agreement have different 'issues' with what I made. Stories of origen change over time. The person(s) holding the animal as 'founders' tell different people different stories, that get mingled with each re-telling. Spouses will tell you what the other won't say further conflating the miss-information. Herds /colonies have interlopers from other enclosures muky-ing-up the 'purity' as well as out right bull$hit.

None of the sources have PIT tagged the animals at the get-go and have kept records of production or distribution. The mixing at founder sources of WC with F1, F2 etc is a mess.

I'll believe any of it after some gene markers are established and tested for, until them it's all a story. Buy a tortoise based on what it, and its parents look like, and don't put too much faith in the story.

Thanks Neal.

 

[Tom]

I've found one single source for true South Africans. He bought 10 of them directly from his friend who did the importation in 1990. He showed me the paper work. He's kept them separated all these years and has never mixed them. I've been to his place twice and toured the whole thing. He also has three other location specific leopard groups that he maintains separately. Everyone else that I've found who has SA leopards, either got them from this same source or some other source that originally got them from him. I have no idea where all the other imports from 1990 and other years ended up, but no one seems to be able to verify anything and none of those other ones breed true. I know of at least 6 breeders on this very site that are knowingly and intentionally making mixes. I have no idea why anyone would do that, but its a free country and I can't stop them. All I can do is keep my own herd pure.

 

[diamondbp]

I've tried very hard over the years to have an understanding of what you are asking. It has been difficult to say the least. I have read threads over the last 10+ years concerning this, talked with as many seasoned tortoise keepers as possible that may have some knowledge, and looked at thousands of pictures of both captive bred babies/adults along with wild specimens from various areas. I'm not joking when I say I have an archive of several hundred photos that I feel are of value regarding this topic.

If you are asking who out in the public market "claims" to have pure south African babies that originate from original imported I could give you a list of all of the ones I know of that currently sell so called "pp" babies. I will do that if that's the info you are looking for. Many of which have obviously mixed babies in my opinion.

If you are looking for info regarding documented papers stating where certain tortoises were actually collected from the wild, I think that simply doesn't exist. I may be wrong. I believe there are 4 people who claim to have or have had original imported tortoises. Only one of these 4 people, who Tom eluded to, seem to have the unanimous agreement that his founder animals are legit south African imports.

I was told by a reliable source that all of the current PP in the states came from the Pretoria Zoo in the north eastern section of South Africa. If true, this could very well mean that the actual specimens imported in to the states could be from several different wild localities. Especially being that Pretoria is in a region that has both south african type leopards (formerly pp), the eastern variety (formerly babcocki), along with wild integrades (mixes) of the two "types".

The other 3 people who I am aware of seem to have support by most in the tortoise community in what they say regarding their original animals as pure, but not by all. I have PP leopards that originate from 3 of the 4 potential sources.

Touching on what Will spoke of, what makes this all the more difficult is that people's stories and opinions have changed over time. Some rightfully so, and some seem to change for the betterment of themselves or to downplay the efforts of others. I have noticed this and have been disappointed by some that I once trusted.

So in short, if someone is looking for a legit south african leopard tortoise I would encourage them to be avoid the very public advertisements because that's where most mixed leopards are sold as pure. They should seek out private breeders who can provide both pictures of the adult males AND females along with pictures of holdback pp leopards that exhibit the usual south african traits at each stage of development (hatchling- yearling- juvie-adults).

Many mixed babies can look incredibly pure as a fresh hatchling, and within 6 months -1 year of solid growth look very much like a typical babcocki leopard with double dots on the vertebral scutes.

Good question though. It's something I ponder and work on figuring out on a regular basis.

 

[Tom]

I'd like to know who the other 3 are. Every one that I have found traces back to RL.

 

[samkerns1]

Thanks to each of you for the thoughtful responses. Whereas I can simply post the questions here, you all must have done considerable investigation and expended much effort to gain your knowledge. Thank you for sharing.

I can see how information can be misconstrued or falsified easily over time. That must be why I'm having trouble finding clear information about this topic.

The more time I spend with my new tortoise, the more interested I become in her background. Most of my zoo animals have records that show their parentage for generations (very few are WC).
If I decide to breed my PP in the future, I want to have a good understanding of whether it's worthwhile to obtain a mate of similar "standing." (She hatched 02/2018, so I have a wee bit o'time)

I'm in no hurry, but I see my new pet tortoise becoming a bigger hobby for me, maybe something to focus on when my human nest is empty (which, coincidently, will happen in roughly 10-13 years). So I'm intel gathering for a long-term goal and because I find it very interesting.

I have incubated and hatched only a handful of reptile species (all at the zoo), and each offered its own challenges. But each instance of success was highly rewarding when a perfect hatchling emerged. I'm looking forward to trying my hand at tortoises some day, and I want to make the best possible choices for any animal in my care. For now, I'm going to keep reading and learning.

 

[diamondbp]

I'd like to know who the other 3 are. Every one that I have found traces back to RL.

Jeff P is one name that I’ve heard about over the years but I don’t know much about him and his operations.

I saw a John V on Wills phenotype chart but that’s the only thing I’ve seen regarding him. I would love to know some history on him but for now I’ll trust Will’s knowledge.

Richard Fife’s story seems to be regarded by most as legit but I believe Tom said he and others have doubts.

And of course RL is without question the main legit source in the states.

 

[Tom]

Jeff P is one name that I’ve heard about over the years but I don’t know much about him and his operations.

I saw a John V on Wills phenotype chart but that’s the only thing I’ve seen regarding him. I would love to know some history on him but for now I’ll trust Will’s knowledge.

Richard Fife’s story seems to be regarded by most as legit but I believe Tom said he and others have doubts.

And of course RL is without question the main legit source in the states.

I've never heard of Jeff P or John V. Of course I know Richard, but the "gossip" about his PPs from people who've known him for years has been unanimous. Hearing it made me sad, as I've always looked up to him. He's not perfect, but I still respect his contributions to the tortoise world immensely.

 

[Tom]

Thanks to each of you for the thoughtful responses. Whereas I can simply post the questions here, you all must have done considerable investigation and expended much effort to gain your knowledge. Thank you for sharing.

I can see how information can be misconstrued or falsified easily over time. That must be why I'm having trouble finding clear information about this topic.

The more time I spend with my new tortoise, the more interested I become in her background. Most of my zoo animals have records that show their parentage for generations (very few are WC).
If I decide to breed my PP in the future, I want to have a good understanding of whether it's worthwhile to obtain a mate of similar "standing." (She hatched 02/2018, so I have a wee bit o'time)

I'm in no hurry, but I see my new pet tortoise becoming a bigger hobby for me, maybe something to focus on when my human nest is empty (which, coincidently, will happen in roughly 10-13 years). So I'm intel gathering for a long-term goal and because I find it very interesting.

I have incubated and hatched only a handful of reptile species (all at the zoo), and each offered its own challenges. But each instance of success was highly rewarding when a perfect hatchling emerged. I'm looking forward to trying my hand at tortoises some day, and I want to make the best possible choices for any animal in my care. For now, I'm going to keep reading and learning.

What was the source of yours?

 

[samkerns1]

What was the source of yours?

Rodriguez Chelonians. A few months ago, I started following all the highly recommended breeders and waited for my opportunity.

 

[Tom]

Rodriguez Chelonians. A few months ago, I started following all the highly recommended breeders and waited for my opportunity.

You've got the real deal there, and from a great seller that starts them well. Chris and Amber are friends of mine and they live fairly close to me. Their stock is directly from the main recognized source that we've been discussing here.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-15#post-1441269 this is based on what the people listed said to me directly, no other source regarding all of these 'lines' with one exception. Might want to look at that secound teir real close.

"Founder effect" explains the current tortoise husbandry/sales use of Stigmochelys pardalis pardalis, which seems to have been mingled with the change in taxonomic status of the genus-species Stigmochelys pardalis.


At one time the nominate form of leopard tortoises was called Geochelone pardalis. Then someone noticed that other area of the range had some that were ‘different’ and the taxonomic trend at the time was to say these from this place are the ‘original’ form, and these from the other places are a subspecies. Now genetic evidence is used and the subspecies distinction is no longer considered valid.


But what about these leopards that are bigger, have freckles and blah blah blah. I agree they look distinct, but that does not change the science of taxonomy. I also find that some people are breeding them.


One (and by some opinions, only one) breeder is said to have some that are the true representation of the S.p.p. phenotype (how they look), and those alone are the ‘true’ S.p.p.


Here’s is where Founder Effect comes in, it, with leopards called ‘true South African’ in north America, is an artificial designation. There are incredibly well determined ‘other’ leopard tortoises from south Africa breeding in north American collections, and they show most of the characteristics most of the time, which is about as strong as is the description for that one and only breeder.


What has come of this is what might be thought of as a ‘breed’ of leopard tortoises in exactly the same manner that some breeds of dogs and cats have come into existence. One person somewhere found an interesting suit of characteristics and kept looking for those characteristic in the offspring, and sooner or later they bred true. That does not mean other offspring from the same larger cohort from some region are not true for that geographic type, but are not displaying certain aesthetic characteristics.


I also find that other forms of leopard tortoise look distinct. Many are mutts is that their origin of the lineage back to when a tortoise was plucked from the wild somewhere has been lost. Like when you go to the animal shelter and get a mixed breed or mutt. It’s hard to tell what breeds have been mixed, or for leopards, what geographic variants have been mixed. All breed of leopards are one species as determined by taxonomists, and for that matter all dogs are one species as well.


Founder effect is (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect ) the reduced genetic diversity that results when a population is descended from a small number of colonizing ancestors.

 

[samkerns1]

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-15#post-1441269 this is based on what the people listed said to me directly, no other source regarding all of these 'lines' with one exception. Might want to look at that secound teir real close.

"Founder effect" explains the current tortoise husbandry/sales use of Stigmochelys pardalis pardalis, which seems to have been mingled with the change in taxonomic status of the genus-species Stigmochelys pardalis.


At one time the nominate form of leopard tortoises was called Geochelone pardalis. Then someone noticed that other area of the range had some that were ‘different’ and the taxonomic trend at the time was to say these from this place are the ‘original’ form, and these from the other places are a subspecies. Now genetic evidence is used and the subspecies distinction is no longer considered valid.


But what about these leopards that are bigger, have freckles and blah blah blah. I agree they look distinct, but that does not change the science of taxonomy. I also find that some people are breeding them.


One (and by some opinions, only one) breeder is said to have some that are the true representation of the S.p.p. phenotype (how they look), and those alone are the ‘true’ S.p.p.


Here’s is where Founder Effect comes in, it, with leopards called ‘true South African’ in north America, is an artificial designation. There are incredibly well determined ‘other’ leopard tortoises from south Africa breeding in north American collections, and they show most of the characteristics most of the time, which is about as strong as is the description for that one and only breeder.


What has come of this is what might be thought of as a ‘breed’ of leopard tortoises in exactly the same manner that some breeds of dogs and cats have come into existence. One person somewhere found an interesting suit of characteristics and kept looking for those characteristic in the offspring, and sooner or later they bred true. That does not mean other offspring from the same larger cohort from some region are not true for that geographic type, but are not displaying certain aesthetic characteristics.


I also find that other forms of leopard tortoise look distinct. Many are mutts is that their origin of the lineage back to when a tortoise was plucked from the wild somewhere has been lost. Like when you go to the animal shelter and get a mixed breed or mutt. It’s hard to tell what breeds have been mixed, or for leopards, what geographic variants have been mixed. All breed of leopards are one species as determined by taxonomists, and for that matter all dogs are one species as well.


Founder effect is (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect ) the reduced genetic diversity that results when a population is descended from a small number of colonizing ancestors.

If the most recent genetic studies indicate that there is not enough variation between PB and PP to justify the distinction of two subspecies, I am inclined to believe that as fact. However, I can respect the emergence of a breed-type as long as new generations remain robust without the appearance of detrimental traits.

I chose to obtain a PP solely because their appearance was pleasing to my eye, and I preferred the prospect of a slightly larger tortoise. For me, her value was not determined by assigned taxonomy but the chance to watch her grow into the traits she will likely exhibit.

Honestly, I am very much an "adopt, don't shop" person. Even my tarantula is a rescue. Purchasing an animal directly from the pet trade specifically because of appearance.... this PP represents the first time I have ever done so.

If I do decide to breed my PP someday, I will probably choose another of her same phenotype. It seems like there are still many distantly or non-related specimens for me to choose from, so why not? I would collect ancestry info as best I could and pass along with any offspring. At least, I like to think I would if it ever happens.

Hopefully, no one is offended who believes that there are two subspecies. Who knows what science will emerge in the future?

This thread has been very enlightening for me.

 

[samkerns1]

 

[Tom]

The paper that I read that did away with the subspecies designation also listed 11 "clades" of distinct, morphologically different populations within the huge range. These 11 clades range from the Ethiopians to the North down to the South Africans that I saw walking around on the extreme southern tip of the Cape. If I recall correctly 5 or 6 of the 11 are from South Africa. The question is: How many of these 11 types have been imported into the US and how many have been kept separate and not mixed with other types. RL has four distinct and different types and only one of those four is from SA. If there have been importations of other SA leopards and they've been kept "pure", I have not been able to discover them. Further, outside of RL, I know of no one that has kept the other types separate either. As far as I can tell, most of the leopards for sale here in the US are a mix of these genetics. This one line from RL being the only exception that I know of and am sure of.

RL did not create a "breed" by looking for distinct characteristics and breeding back for them. He simply bred SA leopard to SA leopard from his group of direct imports, didn't ever mix in any other genetics, and we still have individuals from that line and they still breed true.

 

[Pickle407]

You've got the real deal there, and from a great seller that starts them well. Chris and Amber are friends of mine and they live fairly close to me. Their stock is directly from the main recognized source that we've been discussing here.

@Tom what do you know about the SA leopards from ATC?

 

[Tom]

@Tom what do you know about the SA leopards from ATC?

Last I heard he gets them from the same source that I got mine from. I don't know if, or how many, he breeds himself.

 

[Pickle407]

Last I heard he gets them from the same source that I got mine from. I don't know if, or how many, he breeds himself.

Have you ever had any babies without the double dots or with no dots at all?

 

[Tom]

Have you ever had any babies without the double dots or with no dots at all?

There are a variety of dot patterns, but after seeing and raising a few, it becomes easier to distinguish babies that are not of this line. As they grow, it can become much harder to tell the difference between true pp and mixes. They grow and look different in different climates and with different care regimes. Indoors vs. outdoors, for example. Here is a sampling of what they look like:




I have pics of the two years that I bought babies showing dozens of them in a large tub, but I'm working in Atlanta right now and don't have those pics on this computer. They look exactly like these, with the same sort of variations and consistencies.

 

[wccmog10]

This thread is very interesting. I can’t believe I missed it before.