Questions and thinking about oxalic acid

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Maggie Cummings

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Bob's pen in the Spring is thick with Crimson and New Zealand white clover, but I don't see any evidence that it is harmful to him...what would we see?
 

katesgoey

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I didn't ask my first question very clearly so I'm going to try again: Do we know if there is a loss or lessening of content of the oxalic acid if the plant has been picked for and fed to the tortoise rather than the tortoise "picking" it fresh from the ground itself? I've read where some plants lose some elements after picking if they are not fed within a period of time so I'm curious to know if this makes a difference. Thanks.
 
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stells

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It would certainly be a list that would take alot of bedtime reading lol

English and American list do differ quite abit... more veggies being on the American lists than what we seem to put on over here...

Just because a plant is deemed safe to eat... i think and this is just my thought on it... that in safe it is meant they aren't toxic... they don't seem to go on from that with regards contents of other substances.. so yes safe plants are not going to be dangerous to your tortoise in a toxic way if eaten... but they just may not be suitable for daily feedings due to being to high in others things i.e Oxalic acid...



Madkins007 said:
Few flowers have much oxalic acid, and considering that dandelion flowers are considered edible for humans as well, I doubt they have much.

It would be nice to have a better database of nutrients and plants, but for crying out loud- can you imagine what that would look like? Listing different parts of plants, and in many cases, even different ages or treatments?

Just another quick note- red and white clover is considered HIGH in oxalic acid (the German name for the plant comes from the acid content), but it shows up on 'safe' lists all of the time. Makes me wonder how many other garden or yard plants are high in it but still on the lists.

Anyone got a couple hundred torts sitting around we can experiment with? (we'd need a couple of test groups and a control, so the more the merrier!)
:shy:
 

Crazy1

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So I have been reading and researching a lot regarding spring mix, spinach, dandelion etc. What I have found is most plants if not all, have some toxins in them. Tannins, glucosinolates, glycosides, oxalic acid, you name it. Heck even lettuce has an opiate like substance in it. The amount is the key. Some are low, some are high. Some plants concentrate substances when they are dry others when they are young or sprouts. Unless we are all shooting to be horticulturists or botanists this is going to be well out of our reach. All lists are not alike either some list a particular substance like calcium or vitamin A in one cup of plant matter and another list will list different amounts of the same substances in the same plant. So when the plant is harvested and the soil and area it is grown can also a factor. All we can do is educate ourselves and do the best we can by our animals.

Now I lost a little tort to a badderstone recently and I do not feed spinach to my hatchlings but I do feed it on occasion to my DTs and adult Greeks. But since this incident I look at things with oxalic acid much differently. I also realize hydration is a large key. So I do understand both sides of the coin. Kelly I understand not feeding spinach or kale etc. and Maggie I understand feeding both spinach and kale. Sound ambivilant. I'm not. You must know your torts and do what you-mind you I said YOU feel is best for them. And for me right now decreasing oxalic acid in their diet and increasing hydration is my focus for my hatchlings and juvaniles. And keeping an eye on my adults (which by the way are doing fine).
 

Madkins007

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katesgoey said:
I didn't ask my first question very clearly so I'm going to try again: Do we know if there is a loss or lessening of content of the oxalic acid if the plant has been picked for and fed to the tortoise rather than the tortoise "picking" it fresh from the ground itself? I've read where some plants lose some elements after picking if they are not fed within a period of time so I'm curious to know if this makes a difference. Thanks.

Oxalic acid is more of a mineral than a vitamin. As the plant dries out, the acid becomes more concentrated, but there is not 'more' of it. Because the plant is drier, it hydrates the animal less as well, which is probably the more important element.

The 'drying time' between picking and feeding in situations like local farmer's markets or backyard gardens is probably not as big a deal as the drying time involved in long-distance trucking for mega-marts.

We do know that cooking it kicks the chemical reaction into hyperdrive, however. It has been said on some sites that if the stuff is not cooked, it has much less effect. Not sure I believe that completely, but the theory makes sense.

maggie3fan said:
Bob's pen in the Spring is thick with Crimson and New Zealand white clover, but I don't see any evidence that it is harmful to him...what would we see?

That's kinda the point- I don't think you WOULD see anything. My take on this debate is that as long as the animal is properly hydrated (as in eating live, green plants) with good levels of calcium, UVB, warmth, and vitamin A, then oxalic acid is a non-issue.
 

katesgoey

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Madkins007 said:
katesgoey said:
I didn't ask my first question very clearly so I'm going to try again: Do we know if there is a loss or lessening of content of the oxalic acid if the plant has been picked for and fed to the tortoise rather than the tortoise "picking" it fresh from the ground itself? I've read where some plants lose some elements after picking if they are not fed within a period of time so I'm curious to know if this makes a difference. Thanks.

Oxalic acid is more of a mineral than a vitamin. As the plant dries out, the acid becomes more concentrated, but there is not 'more' of it. Because the plant is drier, it hydrates the animal less as well, which is probably the more important element.

The 'drying time' between picking and feeding in situations like local farmer's markets or backyard gardens is probably not as big a deal as the drying time involved in long-distance trucking for mega-marts.

We do know that cooking it kicks the chemical reaction into hyperdrive, however. It has been said on some sites that if the stuff is not cooked, it has much less effect. Not sure I believe that completely, but the theory makes sense.


Thank you.

 

Tccarolina

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How about spurge? Spotted spurge grows like crazy here in July, August, and September. My two Greek tortoises chowed through it like little combines until I found out it was on almost every toxic list, with high oxalic acid levels. But I'm reading it exists in many of their native habitats, and they have been observed eating it in the wild.
If it is safe for Mediterranean tortoises, I don't want to waste time weeding it out of my large pen all summer. On the other hand, if it is truly dangerous, I don't want to lose my tortoises.
Those of you that lost tortoises to bladder stones; how did you find out? Are bladder stones always killers? My two greek tortoises have been inactive the last month and have lost a little weight since their summer high. They will eat, and appear bright-eyed, dry-nosed, and healthy when I dig them out, but quickly re-bury themselves as soon as they have the opportunity. They don't seem to come out on their own right now at all.
I got them on Craigslist in May, and they stayed hidden at first, but then were active and feeding well, grew a quarter inch each, and gained weight till about the beginning of August. They reached about 525 grams at that point, but now they are both about 460 grams. I try soaking them, but so far, they always weigh slightly less after I soak them, probably due to defecating/urinating. Of course, my box turtles lose weight nearly everytime I soak them, unless I actually observe them drinking extensively during their soak.
So, is this a normal activity pattern for Syrian Greek tortoises? I live in the central valley in California, and my local climate is almost identical to Syria's.

Steve
 
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