Questions on MBD, Pyramiding & Calcium w/D3 (Warning: lotsa silly questions...)

[prettyremarks]

In my spare time, I’ve been researching all that I can about Leopards simply because I want to make sure that I understand everything in order to give little Speed Bump the most proper care that I can provide for her. Right now my head is spinning with an overload of information. I’m very meticulous about trying to do things right and researching as much as I can before asking questions to see if I can answer them for myself.

Just recently I came across a topic in the forum about soft bone disease/MBD, so therefore I’ve been reading on it a bit more. Unfortunately, this has also made me even more paranoid than when I first heard about pyramiding in tortoises.

So pretty much from what I understand, pyramiding and MBD are related to deficiencies in UVB/sunlight/d3 absorbtion, calcium, and humidity. Or am I completely missing something?

This leads to my next question: What are the signs that I need to look for when it comes to the onset of pyramiding and MBD in young tortoises?

I’ve googled pyramiding and MBD in tortoises to search for images and I’ve only ever really seen photographs of the extremely exaggerated pyramiding and I wasn’t exactly sure what I was looking at on the photographs of the MBD. I did a brief search of the forums, as well, but I didn’t really find an exact answer to that sort of a question. (However, I may have missed the thread entirely!)

Currently I’m working on getting humidity/heat leveled out and am looking at purchasing a couple of thermostats to help regulate the temperatures within the enclosure. I’m starting to hit 75-90% humidity now, but my temperatures are still a little less reliable. Since purchasing the new cage, the hot spot hit pretty high today - about 108* which made me a little nervous - so I raised the MVB in hopes of lowering the basking temp a little more, and the lowest that the temperature has dropped to has been 77* in the corner farthest away from the heat source during the day time, which I added the CHE promptly and bumped up a bit to about 83-85* per the suggestion of a couple of other members in Speed Bump’s Enclosure thread. So I’ve been experimenting with using two CHE’s (different wattages) and will be investing in a thermostat to find a combination which one works best to keep the temperature at approximately 80* for when I go back to school. Night time is a bit of a different story, as I’m using both the 100watt and 50watt CHE’s and it’s keeping the temperatures a bit higher than I’d like to see them.. so that’s where I’m hoping the thermostat will really help me out. (As of right now, I’m waking up about every hour throughout the night to get up and check on the temperatures in her cage and make adjustments!)

I just want to make sure that I am able to identify whether or not I need to change my husbandry in order to attempt the further onset of the disfigurement/illness. Currently I’m providing an organic Spring Mix that I’ve found at the grocery store (minus the spinach - which I think there’s been more spinach in the mix than all the other ingredients!), and I’ve recently raided a friend’s garden for some different vegetables since she raises all her plants by seed and does not use pesticides. I just have to sit down and sort through the bag to identify all the pieces and make sure everything is tortoise safe.

And then I have another question: How much calcium with d3 should I be providing and how often?

I picked up ZooMed’s Repti Calcium w/ D3, as per an acquaintance’s suggestion. Looking at the directions/dosages, it reads: “Add approximately 1/2 teaspoon (2.5cc) to food for every 5 ounces (142 grams) of body weight on a weekly basis.” However, I’ve read that some people give their tortoises supplementation every couple of days, three times a week, etc. etc. (I realize that it varies based on everyone’s opinion.) I’ve also read that some people “sprinkle” some on the food. What is a sprinkle? The few times that I’ve fed it - probably every 5 days or so - I take a 1/2 teaspoon, dump it in a plastic baggie, add in her food and then shake it up really well. I’ve noticed, however, that she doesn’t really eat as much of the food with the calcium on it... so I’m not sure if she’s receiving enough or if I’m even providing her enough.

Below is a photograph that I just snagged of Speed Bump in hopes that some members with more experience might be able to see if there is something that I can’t see. I’m not sure if the angle is right for really being able to tell anything. She just happened to be still for once while she was eating and I took advantage of the moment. As of right now, I see there are a few ridges down the middle - which I’m assuming is the vertebra? And as silly as this question may be - is that normal to see in tortoises?

Thanks,
Mea

 

[wellington]

If you haven't read Toms threads below yet, do so, they will help a lot. Give calcium supplement twice a week. Lots of natural sunshine when possible, keep well hydrated feed good varied diet and a muti vitamin 1-2 times a week also. The d3 isn't really needed with lots of sunshine. Otherwise Give 1-2 times a week, probably already in your calcium, just a little. Too much d3 is bad too. Hope this helps.

 

[DesertGrandma]

I'll try to help with a few things. I remember feeling like you do when I got my first baby tort. You can relax a bit, and try to get more sleep. You probably don't need two CHE's unless your enclosure is very long/large. If you are using an MVB also, one CHE should be enough to keep it warm. Put your CHE on a thermostat that is set at about 80-85 degrees. Put your MVB at the opposite end of your enclosure and hang it high/low enough to provide about 100 degrees at the ground level. Turn off the MVB at night or put it on a timer so that it comes on in the morning and goes off at night. As long as the area under the CHE is still 80-85 degrees, your tort will stay under the warmth. That is the ideal place to put your humid hide, so it stays warm and moist through the night and through the day also. As for the calcium supplement, I would say a "pinch" is enough for a serving. If the directions say 1/2 tsp. I would think that means a few pinches a week. If he doesn't eat it, then reduce the amount and gradually increase it as he gets used to it. As long as you are providing daily soakings, warm moist enclosure/hide, a varied diet and sunshines and MVD your tortoise won't get MBD. That happens to tortoises that are badly neglected. Be sure to get your baby outside as much as possible when the temps are 70 or above for some sun and exercise. Any more questions just ask. Lots of people on the forum just standing by to help you. Good luck with your cute little tortoise.

 

[wellington]

The on,y thing I would like to add about the other post that I wouldn't do is the 70 degrees its a little cool. Don't forget your keeping him at 80 and above inside. At that young age I don't do less then 80 in the sunshine. If you have a temp gun, you can shoot the ground temp. Once mine got to a year, then I would do 75 degrees and above. Even outside its nice to have it humid if possible. Also, I have to use two CHE's in the winter and one in the summer. What ever you have to do to keep the temp 80 and above with humidity at 80 or above.

 

[DesertGrandma]

If it is a clear day with sun then 70 degrees will be perfectly okay. If it is cloudy or windy then I agree 70 is probably too cool. I am assuming in TX there would be bright sunny skies.

 

[prettyremarks]

Thankfully for the next few days the weather will be about 80-85* outside and will be nice and sunny, so I'm definitely going to try to get her out into the tub she was originally in for a couple of hours to get some sunshine. I plan on trying to set it up on the back porch, because I often go out and am working around the back yard or sitting on the porch.. so I'll still be able to keep a close watch.

I'm using the two CHE's at night simply because the cooler side isn't hitting the 80's at all. It's going about 77 and slowly working its way lower. I'm just too nervous to let it get any lower, so I turn the smaller CHE on at the cooler end and leave the area around the lamp open a little more so it won't be absolutely smoldering on that side. (I've made a nifty little cover out of foil tape to cover/open the mesh on the lid which seems to be working so far.) Thankfully Speed Bump seems to be moving around the enclosure to regulate herself while I'm getting things just right. Hopefully once I figure it out, I can get everything set on timers.

Also, wellington, you mentioned a multi-vitamin. Can you recommend a particular brand?

 

[sibi]

Don't be too concerned if your baby won't eat the food with the sprinkled calcium. I would just feed him, and place a cuddle bone for him to bite at when he wants calcium. Also, there is liquid calcium that you may put into his food. Remember calcium is only effective when he gets sunshine or uv from a bulb; otherwise, it would be useless. And sunshine through a window is also useless. So, if the temps outside is higher than 70, and it's sunny, go for it. Btw, your baby looks beautiful!!!

 

[wellington]

Thankfully for the next few days the weather will be about 80-85* outside and will be nice and sunny, so I'm definitely going to try to get her out into the tub she was originally in for a couple of hours to get some sunshine. I plan on trying to set it up on the back porch, because I often go out and am working around the back yard or sitting on the porch.. so I'll still be able to keep a close watch.

I'm using the two CHE's at night simply because the cooler side isn't hitting the 80's at all. It's going about 77 and slowly working its way lower. I'm just too nervous to let it get any lower, so I turn the smaller CHE on at the cooler end and leave the area around the lamp open a little more so it won't be absolutely smoldering on that side. (I've made a nifty little cover out of foil tape to cover/open the mesh on the lid which seems to be working so far.) Thankfully Speed Bump seems to be moving around the enclosure to regulate herself while I'm getting things just right. Hopefully once I figure it out, I can get everything set on timers.

Also, wellington, you mentioned a multi-vitamin. Can you recommend a particular
brand?

Miner-All is highly recommended. Also, someone here, I'm not positive who, I think Neal, crushes up a human chewable multivitamin and give a pinch. None of the supplements need to be fed in big amounts. Just a small pinch twice weekly or if you get the spray, one small spritz. BTW, a cuttle bone is always recommended, but also a pinch or spritz of the calcium weekly. Mine wouldn't eat the powder so I bought spray, and he doesn't seem to know its there. Also, when outside in the sunshine, be sure you have water available and shade. They can over heat very quickly.

 

[Blakem]

RE: Questions on MBD, Pyramiding & Calcium w/D3 (Warning: lotsa silly questions.

Miner-All is highly recommended. Also, someone here, I'm not positive who, I think Neal, crushes up a human chewable multivitamin and give a pinch. None of the supplements need to be fed in big amounts. Just a small pinch twice weekly or if you get the spray, one small spritz. BTW, a cuttle bone is always recommended, but also a pinch or spritz of the calcium weekly. Mine wouldn't eat the powder so I bought spray, and he doesn't seem to know its there. Also, when outside in the sunshine, be sure you have water available and shade. They can over heat very quickly.

Where can you buy the miner-all? I've searched on LLL reptiles and Carolina pet supply.

 

[sibi]

I meant cuttle bone, not "cuddle." You see, I always have love on my mind.

Don't be too concerned if your baby won't eat the food with the sprinkled calcium. I would just feed him, and place a cuddle bone for him to bite at when he wants calcium. Also, there is liquid calcium that you may put into his food. Remember calcium is only effective when he gets sunshine or uv from a bulb; otherwise, it would be useless. And sunshine through a window is also useless. So, if the temps outside is higher than 70, and it's sunny, go for it. Btw, your baby looks beautiful!!!

 

[wellington]

RE: Questions on MBD, Pyramiding & Calcium w/D3 (Warning: lotsa silly questions.

Miner-All is highly recommended. Also, someone here, I'm not positive who, I think Neal, crushes up a human chewable multivitamin and give a pinch. None of the supplements need to be fed in big amounts. Just a small pinch twice weekly or if you get the spray, one small spritz. BTW, a cuttle bone is always recommended, but also a pinch or spritz of the calcium weekly. Mine wouldn't eat the powder so I bought spray, and he doesn't seem to know its there. Also, when outside in the sunshine, be sure you have water available and shade. They can over heat very quickly.

Where can you buy the miner-all? I've searched on LLL reptiles and Carolina pet supply.
[/]

Here is one place. It's hard to find if you don't spell it right when searching for it. Here's a link. Hope it works. http://www.theturtlesource.com/p.asp?id=125913&main=777

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Thankfully for the next few days the weather will be about 80-85* outside and will be nice and sunny, so I'm definitely going to try to get her out into the tub she was originally in for a couple of hours to get some sunshine. I plan on trying to set it up on the back porch, because I often go out and am working around the back yard or sitting on the porch.. so I'll still be able to keep a close watch.

I'm using the two CHE's at night simply because the cooler side isn't hitting the 80's at all. It's going about 77 and slowly working its way lower. I'm just too nervous to let it get any lower, so I turn the smaller CHE on at the cooler end and leave the area around the lamp open a little more so it won't be absolutely smoldering on that side. (I've made a nifty little cover out of foil tape to cover/open the mesh on the lid which seems to be working so far.) Thankfully Speed Bump seems to be moving around the enclosure to regulate herself while I'm getting things just right. Hopefully once I figure it out, I can get everything set on timers.

Also, wellington, you mentioned a multi-vitamin. Can you recommend a particular
brand?

Miner-All is highly recommended. Also, someone here, I'm not positive who, I think Neal, crushes up a human chewable multivitamin and give a pinch. None of the supplements need to be fed in big amounts. Just a small pinch twice weekly or if you get the spray, one small spritz. BTW, a cuttle bone is always recommended, but also a pinch or spritz of the calcium weekly. Mine wouldn't eat the powder so I bought
spray, and he doesn't seem to know its there. Also, when outside in the sunshine, be sure you have water available and shade. They can over heat very quickly.

BTW the Miner-All has the calcium in it. If your tort get lots of sunshine, you don't need the D3. The Miner-All comes with D3 and one without it. You being in Texas, I wouldn't give D3. As long as you can get him/her outside at least 2-3 times a week for and hour or so each day.

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