Questions Regarding CBW Permit

pingu_slayer

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Hello there!

I am new to this forum and I have a couple of questions about the CBW permit. They are the following:

1. Do you need the permit to keep endangered species in MA? I intend on keeping, breeding, and selling Radiated tortoises (Astrochelys radiata), Spider tortoises (Pyxis sp.), Grand Cayman blue iguanas (Cyclura lewisi), Fijian crested iguana (Brachylophus vitiensis), and many others.

2. Do you need the permit to move across state lines with all the animals?

3. Are captive-bred-and-born animals born in other countries allowed to be imported into the U.S.?

Please feel free to let me know!

Ciao,
pingu_slayer
 

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pingu_slayer

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Ok. However, I did some scrolling through other threads and found some info about a commerce permit that is completely separate from the CBW permit. Could it be possible to own, breed, sell, and move across state lines with endangered species with said commerce permit?
 

TeamZissou

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1. Do you need the permit to keep endangered species in MA? I intend on keeping, breeding, and selling Radiated tortoises (Astrochelys radiata), Spider tortoises (Pyxis sp.), Grand Cayman blue iguanas (Cyclura lewisi), Fijian crested iguana (Brachylophus vitiensis), and many others.
You'd need to look up any info on keeping certain endangered species for your specific state. @zovick lived in MA for several years and kept Radiated and many other species. He may also be able to suggest some Radiated breeders in MA for you to contact. ESA species can be gifted, or given for free across state lines, as long as no money is exchanged.

Spider tortoises aren't covered under ESA, so they can be bought and sold across state lines. You'd need to see if the other iguanas are ESA listed or not.

2. Do you need the permit to move across state lines with all the animals?

No, if you own them legally, you can take them with you if you move across state lines with them to wherever. Along with gifting, this is the only practical way that ESA species can get established and become available in states where a breeder does not already exist.

3. Are captive-bred-and-born animals born in other countries allowed to be imported into the U.S.?

This would depend on CITES appendix listing of a specific species. Radiated and pyxis being CITES appendix I it would be impossible. I do not believe CB/WC is a factor.
 

TammyJ

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Those iguanas are endangered protected species in their own countries.
 

zovick

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Hello there!

I am new to this forum and I have a couple of questions about the CBW permit. They are the following:

1. Do you need the permit to keep endangered species in MA? I intend on keeping, breeding, and selling Radiated tortoises (Astrochelys radiata), Spider tortoises (Pyxis sp.), Grand Cayman blue iguanas (Cyclura lewisi), Fijian crested iguana (Brachylophus vitiensis), and many others.

2. Do you need the permit to move across state lines with all the animals?

3. Are captive-bred-and-born animals born in other countries allowed to be imported into the U.S.?

Please feel free to let me know!

Ciao,
pingu_slayer
You will not get a permit to import any CITES I animal into the US, whether it is CBB or not.

Cyclura lewisi would require a CBW Permit for sales and purchases within the US. Not sure about other iguanas.

You need to check with the state of MA DEC or DEP to find out if ownership of your species of interest require a state permit. Having lived in CT, I know that CT required a CT state permit to own most, if not all, endangered species.

The above-mentioned state-issued permits regard OWNERSHIP of the animals only and have absolutely nothing to do with CBW Permits which are issued by the federal government for SALES and PURCHASES of endangered species across state lines. CBW Permits are needed not for owning the animals, but for BUYING OR SELLING them across state lines (INTERSTATE COMMERCE). Buying and selling within your own legal residence state to another legal resident of the same state is not regulated by the CBW Permit.

You also asked about the Interstate Commerce Permit in another post. Those are granted for specific transactions only and are not blanket permits. IE, each purchase or sale requires another permit. Some snake breeders have used them successfully to buy and sell Eastern Indigo Snakes, but I am not aware of any tortoise breeders ever being granted those IC permits.
 
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zovick

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You'd need to look up any info on keeping certain endangered species for your specific state. @zovick lived in MA for several years and kept Radiated and many other species. He may also be able to suggest some Radiated breeders in MA for you to contact. ESA species can be gifted, or given for free across state lines, as long as no money is exchanged.

Spider tortoises aren't covered under ESA, so they can be bought and sold across state lines. You'd need to see if the other iguanas are ESA listed or not.



No, if you own them legally, you can take them with you if you move across state lines with them to wherever. Along with gifting, this is the only practical way that ESA species can get established and become available in states where a breeder does not already exist.



This would depend on CITES appendix listing of a specific species. Radiated and pyxis being CITES appendix I it would be impossible. I do not believe CB/WC is a factor.
Everything Brett said above is correct.
 

PA2019

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You should also plan on needing a CBW permit for all the species you mentioned within the next 5 years. Legislation is heading in that direction rather quickly. If you purchase hatchling Pyxis or radiata, then by the time they are of breedable age the laws will likely be well established for interstate sales.
 

passwordstaco

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No, if you own them legally, you can take them with you if you move across state lines with them to wherever. Along with gifting, this is the only practical way that ESA species can get established and become available in states where a breeder does not already exist.

Do you mind providing documentation around the gifting? I feel like this could open up options for me and would like to understand all the details. Thanks!
 

zovick

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Do you mind providing documentation around the gifting? I feel like this could open up options for me and would like to understand all the details. Thanks!
Any person who owns an endangered animal for which a CBW Permit is required for interstate SALES or TRADES is allowed to GIVE AWAY or DONATE the animal(s) to a person in another state. No money can change hands and no trades for specimens of any other species are allowed.

LOANS of said endangered animals to residents of another state are also allowed without a CBW Permit being required.

A written Gifting, Donation, or Loan agreement between the two parties would be a very good thing to have available in case USFWS checks into it.
 

TeamZissou

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Any person who owns an endangered animal for which a CBW Permit is required for interstate SALES or TRADES is allowed to GIVE AWAY or DONATE the animal(s) to a person in another state. No money can change hands and no trades for specimens of any other species are allowed.

LOANS of said endangered animals to residents of another state are also allowed without a CBW Permit being required.

A written Gifting, Donation, or Loan agreement between the two parties would be a very good thing to have available in case USFWS checks into it.

Is Gifting animals addressed, or explicitly said to be allowed anywhere on in the ESA or by USFWS? I think this may have been what the poster was asking, looking for a specific line in the law. I searched the ESA and USFWS a few weeks ago but never found anything. Or, does the argument go that Gifting doesn't involve money (commerce) therefore it wouldn't fall under the purview of the ESA, and hence wouldn't need to be discussed in either the law or by FWS?
 

jaizei

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Is Gifting animals addressed, or explicitly said to be allowed anywhere on in the ESA or by USFWS? I think this may have been what the poster was asking, looking for a specific line in the law. I searched the ESA and USFWS a few weeks ago but never found anything. Or, does the argument go that Gifting doesn't involve money (commerce) therefore it wouldn't fall under the purview of the ESA, and hence wouldn't need to be discussed in either the law or by FWS?

This is the government acknowledging this exception when proposing changes. Its possible it was addressed at some other time.
page 42/100 of pdf, page 550 of document


The Act prohibits interstate commerce, e.g., sale or transfer of a leasehold interest in listed wildlife from one person to another across a state line. It does not prohibit intrastate commerce [e.g., commerce within a single State); non-commercial interstate transfers of legally-taken wildlife [e.g., loans, gifts); possession of lawfully acquired endangered species; or, once lawfully possessed without benefit of a permit, use of them in ways that are not encompassed by the prohibition against “take.” Given these limits, the Service cannot fully control the use of captivebred animals, nor mandate compliance with conservation programs by persons
holding such animals.
 

TeamZissou

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This is the government acknowledging this exception when proposing changes. Its possible it was addressed at some other time.
page 42/100 of pdf, page 550 of document


The Act prohibits interstate commerce, e.g., sale or transfer of a leasehold interest in listed wildlife from one person to another across a state line. It does not prohibit intrastate commerce [e.g., commerce within a single State); non-commercial interstate transfers of legally-taken wildlife [e.g., loans, gifts); possession of lawfully acquired endangered species; or, once lawfully possessed without benefit of a permit, use of them in ways that are not encompassed by the prohibition against “take.” Given these limits, the Service cannot fully control the use of captivebred animals, nor mandate compliance with conservation programs by persons
holding such animals.

Excellent find, thank you
 

zovick

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Is Gifting animals addressed, or explicitly said to be allowed anywhere on in the ESA or by USFWS? I think this may have been what the poster was asking, looking for a specific line in the law. I searched the ESA and USFWS a few weeks ago but never found anything. Or, does the argument go that Gifting doesn't involve money (commerce) therefore it wouldn't fall under the purview of the ESA, and hence wouldn't need to be discussed in either the law or by FWS?
Jaizei has answered this question in fine fashion.

Yes, your statement is correct. Giving away or donating animals to residents of other states without a CBW Permit is allowed because it does not involve any exchange of animals for money or for any other animal species, both of which are considered interstate commerce.

It is important to note that trading animals of the same endangered species (one for one only) was not considered interstate commerce a few years ago and required no permits, but I am not sure how USWFWS would react to that today with the way they have been twisting their interpretations of the laws. It would be safest to ask USFWS before trading a male for a female, IMHO.

I do know that trading for another species or for more than one animal of the same permitted species is considered "commerce" by USFWS today and requires both parties to possess the CBW Permit, although it used to be allowed in the "good old days".
 

dd33

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I noticed that there have been some applications for new CBW permits and renewals published in the federal register over the past couple of months. Some of the applications were several years old but only recently published. I wonder if there will be some movement with the permits again.
 

passwordstaco

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Thank you all so much! This is super helpful. Not sure it will really change my ability to get one, but it at least gives me more options. Thank you very much!
 

TeamZissou

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There are a lot of radiated in CA. You should be able to find and buy one without much trouble, no permit or gift needed if it’s resident to resident in state.
 
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