Reconsidering My Choice Of Tortoise(Suggestions?)

Naulsteen

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For a good amount period of time my fascination was drawn towards sulcatas and sulcatas only, there were times when my attention was drawn to other species but at the end of the day most of the attraction and fascination would always end up heading towards at sulcatas again.

As i learn more and more about them and the more i prepared myself the more my admiration towards them grew even more i always think about how nice it would be if i get one, i did plan to adopt a sulcata and im glad i have gotten this far in terms of preparation and gain plenty of knowledge from numerous members,threads, and articles both on TortoiseForum and TortoiseLibrary.

But at this point i encouraged myself to think the opposite, "How bad it would be if i get a sulcata" and honestly there are also good amount of cons especially in my current state, im going to move very soon there would be much more space but i still have doubts and their size is also a thing to consider and it really starts to get into my head these thoughts... "Would i be able to deal with their excrement in later years?" "Would i be able to transport them when i need to?" "Am i going to be able to deal with their size in later years?" "What am i going to do? How am i gonna deal with all of other problems that comes with that species in later years?" Those thoughts really made me think twice of my choice that i start to question if it's okay and i dont really think so.

And i think i would be better off with other species but i just dont know which one, i don't want it too big nor too small i think one that could grow about 16++ inches would be just perfect, Yes i know leopards and redfoots are medium-sized tortoise but i never know for sure what's their average size and i would love to know their accurate average size or easily reachable size or maybe other species of tortoises that could easily reach 15-16++ inch.

I will really appreciate the feedback, Sulcatas may or may not be possible for me but if other options are a possibility i will take that into consideration. As always Thank You! :D
 
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Ink

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I have a leopard and mine is on the smaller side. However some get big. I really enjoy his personality. I am sure others will be able to help you out. Good luck.
 

Naulsteen

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I also would like to inform that certain species of tortoises such as manouria and marginated tortoises is not a possibility in my country they are just not in the general market and radiated tortoises are just a luxury, the climate may be tropical here but it gets really hot here as well.
 

Naulsteen

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I have a leopard and mine is on the smaller side. However some get big. I really enjoy his personality. I am sure others will be able to help you out. Good luck.
Thank you! I also hope others would hop on and give their opinions!
 

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For a good amount period of time my fascination was drawn towards sulcatas and sulcatas only, there were times when my attention was drawn to other species but at the end of the day most of the attraction and fascination would always end up heading towards at sulcatas again.

As i learn more and more about them and the more i prepared myself the more my admiration towards them grew even more i always think about how nice it would be if i get one, i did plan to adopt a sulcata and im glad i have gotten this far in terms of preparation and gain plenty of knowledge from numerous members,threads, and articles both on TortoiseForum and TortoiseLibrary.

But at this point i encouraged myself to think the opposite, "How bad it would be if i get a sulcata" and honestly there are also good amount of cons especially in my current state, im going to move very soon there would be much more space but i still have doubts and their size is also a thing to consider and it really starts to get into my head these thoughts... "Would i be able to deal with their excrement in later years?" "Would i be able to transport them when i need to?" "Am i going to be able to deal with their size in later years?" "What am i going to do? How am i gonna deal with all of other problems that comes with that species in later years?" Those thoughts really made me think twice of my choice that i start to question if it's okay and i dont really think so.

And i think i would be better off with other species but i just dont know which one, i don't want it too big nor too small i think one that could grow about 16++ inches would be just perfect, Yes i know leopards and redfoots are medium-sized tortoise but i never know for sure what's their average size and i would love to know their accurate average size or easily reachable size or maybe other species of tortoises that could easily reach 15-16++ inch.

I will really appreciate the feedback, Sulcatas may or may not be possible for me but if other options are a possibility i will take that into consideration. As always Thank You! :D
I must commend you on doing such in-depth consideration and discernment. Many end up with the wrong tortoise species because they have a romanticized idea of what it will be like. I can't give you any advice, as I only have a small Russian, but I do want to acknowledge your responsible thinking.

Good luck!
 
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Tom

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For a good amount period of time my fascination was drawn towards sulcatas and sulcatas only, there were times when my attention was drawn to other species but at the end of the day most of the attraction and fascination would always end up heading towards at sulcatas again.

As i learn more and more about them and the more i prepared myself the more my admiration towards them grew even more i always think about how nice it would be if i get one, i did plan to adopt a sulcata and im glad i have gotten this far in terms of preparation and gain plenty of knowledge from numerous members,threads, and articles both on TortoiseForum and TortoiseLibrary.

But at this point i encouraged myself to think the opposite, "How bad it would be if i get a sulcata" and honestly there are also good amount of cons especially in my current state, im going to move very soon there would be much more space but i still have doubts and their size is also a thing to consider and it really starts to get into my head these thoughts... "Would i be able to deal with their excrement in later years?" "Would i be able to transport them when i need to?" "Am i going to be able to deal with their size in later years?" "What am i going to do? How am i gonna deal with all of other problems that comes with that species in later years?" Those thoughts really made me think twice of my choice that i start to question if it's okay and i dont really think so.

And i think i would be better off with other species but i just dont know which one, i don't want it too big nor too small i think one that could grow about 16++ inches would be just perfect, Yes i know leopards and redfoots are medium-sized tortoise but i never know for sure what's their average size and i would love to know their accurate average size or easily reachable size or maybe other species of tortoises that could easily reach 15-16++ inch.

I will really appreciate the feedback, Sulcatas may or may not be possible for me but if other options are a possibility i will take that into consideration. As always Thank You! :D
If you want over 16":
South African or Ethiopian leopard tortoises.
Manouria
Radiata
And there is one type of yellow foot that gets big, if you can find that type.

Everything else is either a giant, or smaller than those listed above.

How about this idea: What species are available in your country, and we can list the pros and cons?
 

Leah1234

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For a good amount period of time my fascination was drawn towards sulcatas and sulcatas only, there were times when my attention was drawn to other species but at the end of the day most of the attraction and fascination would always end up heading towards at sulcatas again.

As i learn more and more about them and the more i prepared myself the more my admiration towards them grew even more i always think about how nice it would be if i get one, i did plan to adopt a sulcata and im glad i have gotten this far in terms of preparation and gain plenty of knowledge from numerous members,threads, and articles both on TortoiseForum and TortoiseLibrary.

But at this point i encouraged myself to think the opposite, "How bad it would be if i get a sulcata" and honestly there are also good amount of cons especially in my current state, im going to move very soon there would be much more space but i still have doubts and their size is also a thing to consider and it really starts to get into my head these thoughts... "Would i be able to deal with their excrement in later years?" "Would i be able to transport them when i need to?" "Am i going to be able to deal with their size in later years?" "What am i going to do? How am i gonna deal with all of other problems that comes with that species in later years?" Those thoughts really made me think twice of my choice that i start to question if it's okay and i dont really think so.

And i think i would be better off with other species but i just dont know which one, i don't want it too big nor too small i think one that could grow about 16++ inches would be just perfect, Yes i know leopards and redfoots are medium-sized tortoise but i never know for sure what's their average size and i would love to know their accurate average size or easily reachable size or maybe other species of tortoises that could easily reach 15-16++ inch.

I will really appreciate the feedback, Sulcatas may or may not be possible for me but if other options are a possibility i will take that into consideration. As always Thank You! :D
I’ve got a Hermann’s! Not sure what size she’ll become but she’s adorable and curious!
 

Naulsteen

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I must commend you on doing such in-depth consideration and discernment. Many end up with the wrong tortoise species because they have a romanticized idea of what it will be like. I can't give you any advice, as I only have a small Russian, but I do want to acknowledge your responsible thinking.

Good luck!
Thanks! This is exactly what im afraid of... Implusive decision making and its consequences and i dont want that on my side, In my country tortoises (especially sulcatas) is getting more and more popular than ever it all started when the pandemic hits that they would grew tremendously in popularity and most people here would purchase sulcatas, some would buy 2 to 4 in impulse at a Pet expo and such and if you really witness how it all goes... It's like they are purchasing goldfish so simple and fast no second thoughts no planning at all just impulsive...

They will be offered and purchased the wrong crappy lamp fixture, wrong supplies, cheap crappy uvb,overpriced beddings, and a 10 gallon tank, a 10 gallon tank... For a tortoise... And i've seen it everywhere and i really mean it when i said everywhere and i've overheard conversations between the seller and the buyer about when asked about the husbandry, and nothing worth noting, Wrong temps(doesn't even acknowledge or even mention of the 4 Temps ever),no mention of humidity(many keepers and breeders here still dont acknowledge and neglect the importance of humidity,humid hides and proper hydration), wrong food, wrong settings, wrong routine (they thought 10-15 minutes of sunning is more than enough for a sulcata) and this husbandry method is utilized by most of the keepers and breeders here and one day i see those keepers wondering why their tortoise is not doing well and pyramided as heck... it's saddening only a very tiny portion of keepers and breeders get it right but there's a pandemic of misinformation, i never want to be like them and i wish i have the power to fix it...

i always find it frustrating that they thought 10 gallon tank will work just fine while im here thinking i should buy more Expanded PVC's so i could work things around and make my enclosure bigger for whatever tortoise im gonna adopt... I can only tell you that Im forever grateful that i found this forum.
 
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Mrs.Jennifer

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Thanks! This is exactly what im afraid of... Implusive decision making and i dont want that on my side, In my country tortoise is getting more and more popular than ever it all started when the pandemic hits that they would grew tremendously in popularity and most people here would purchase sulcatas, some would buy 2 to 4 in impulse at a Pet expo and such and if you really witness how it all goes... It's like they are purchasing goldfish so simple and fast no second thoughts no planning at all just impulsive...

They will be offered and purchased the wrong crappy lamp fixture, wrong supplies, cheap crappy uvb,overpriced beddings, and a 10 gallon tank, a 10 gallon tank... For a tortoise... And i've seen it everywhere and i really mean it when i said everywhere and i've overheard conversations between the seller and the buyer about when asked about the husbandry, and nothing worth noting, Wrong temps(doesn't even acknowledge or even mention of the 4 Temps ever),no mention of humidity(many keepers and breeders here still dont acknowledge and neglect the importance of humidity,humid hides and proper hydration), wrong food, wrong settings, wrong routine (they thought 10-15 minutes of sunning is more than enough for a sulcata) and this husbandry method is utilized by most of the keepers and breeders here and one day i see those keepers wondering why their tortoise is not doing well and pyramided as heck... it's saddening only a very tiny portion of keepers and breeders get it right but there's a pandemic of misinformation, i never want to be like them and i wish i have the power to fix it...

i always find it frustrating that they thought 10 gallon tank will work just fine while im here thinking i should buy more Expanded PVC's so i could work things around and make my enclosure bigger for whatever tortoise im gonna adopt... I can only tell you that Im forever grateful that i found this forum.
Amen!!
 

Naulsteen

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I’ve got a Hermann’s! Not sure what size she’ll become but she’s adorable and curious!
Hermannis are very gorgeous i've also fascinated by them but sadly hermannis hasn't entered the general market here and some people would falsely identify them as greek tortoises over here(real)
 

Naulsteen

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If you want over 16":
South African or Ethiopian leopard tortoises.
Manouria
Radiata
And there is one type of yellow foot that gets big, if you can find that type.

Everything else is either a giant, or smaller than those listed above.

How about this idea: What species are available in your country, and we can list the pros and cons?
Thanks! I will refer to all species that is readily available in the general market both small and medium sized! Except for sulcatas and aldabras, because of course they are giants 😅, especially aldabras because they are just another luxury

We got Leopard Babcocki,Redfoot,Yellowfoot, Greek(generally Ibera, but there's also moroccan and mesopotamian),
Russian,Radiata,Indian,Burmese,Kleinmanni(not always available),

Im pretty sure that's all that i've known available here, we don't have much variation here yet like manouria,hermanns,pancakes,and SA Leopards especially SA leopards they are still considered as high end luxury and incredibly rare species(i mean it, the price could be 2 or 3 times more expensive than aldabras and radiateds even the babies/hatchlings)
 
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Levi the Leopard

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My male leopard tortoise is just shy of 18" long. He has all the "outgoing personality" of a sulcata without all the destructive cons. He's perfect in that way!

If you get a well started hatchling and raise it correctly (hot & humid chamber) you'll have a decent sized leopard in no time.
 

Naulsteen

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Thanks! I will refer to all species that is readily available in the general market both small and medium sized! Except for sulcatas and aldabras, because of course they are giants 😅, especially aldabras because they are just another luxury

We got Leopard Babcocki,Redfoot,Yellowfoot, Greek(generally Ibera, but there's also moroccan and mesopotamian),
Russian,Radiata,Indian,Burmese,Kleinmanni(not always available),

Im pretty sure that's all that i've known available here, we don't have much variation here yet like manouria,hermanns,pancakes,and SA Leopards especially SA leopards they are still considered as high end luxury and incredibly rare species(i mean it, the price could be 2 or 3 times more expensive than aldabras and radiateds even the babies/hatchlings)
I would like to clarify that, Yes SA Leopards are indeed available here but it's far beyond my reach due to the things that i have listed. They aren't even common in the general market here so yes it's incredibly rare and that's why it's incredibly expensive over here, only a few like maybe way less than 10 breeders in the country are capable of breeding them.
 
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Naulsteen

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My male leopard tortoise is just shy of 18" long. He has all the "outgoing personality" of a sulcata without all the destructive cons. He's perfect in that way!

If you get a well started hatchling and raise it correctly (hot & humid chamber) you'll have a decent sized leopard in no time.
They are indeed amazing but one thing that still bothers me to this day is the rumors that they are "fragile" and it's a common rumor among the community in my country hence why leopards altho they're not less popular than sulcatas they still inflict fears on people because they are said to be "fragile species" and to be honest i dont really believe that rumor to be true and i don't want it to be true.

Because i really can't expect much credibility from them when like most of the keepers here keep leopards and other species alike in a dry 10 gallon tank, no thermo/hygro meters,no waterbowls,dry hides, no gradient temps and wrong foods... This is actually a common occurence here and i've seen it numerous of times, But on the other side i never had any first-hand experience with them so i can't really be sure if that's really the case... That's why I would love to hear your opinion and your experiences with them just for the sake of clearing this misconception out of my head so this rumors can no longer haunt me. Thanks! 😅
 

Tom

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They are indeed amazing but one thing that still bothers me to this day is the rumors that they are "fragile" and it's a common rumor among the community in my country hence why leopards altho they're not less popular than sulcatas they still inflict fears on people because they are said to be "fragile species" and to be honest i dont really believe that rumor to be true and i don't want it to be true.

Because i really can't expect much credibility from them when like most of the keepers here keep leopards and other species alike in a dry 10 gallon tank, no thermo/hygro meters,no waterbowls,dry hides, no gradient temps and wrong foods... This is actually a common occurence here and i've seen it numerous of times, But on the other side i never had any first-hand experience with them so i can't really be sure if that's really the case... That's why I would love to hear your opinion and your experiences with them just for the sake of clearing this misconception out of my head so this rumors can no longer haunt me. Thanks! 😅
Two things to understand about any leopard tortoise conversation:
1. We've been importing them into the US since the 1960's from all over their range. For decades people have been mixing the different types. This is why you often see 18 inch "regular' leopards with outgoing personalities, instead of 12 inch leopards that are shy. When you buy a genetic mix, it can go either way. I don't know how much genetic mixing has occurred in your country. You might still be able to find direct imports, or "pure" genetic lines.
2. Almost no one in the entire world starts them correctly. They are not delicate, but just like every other living thing, dehydration will kill them. If you can find properly started, well hydrated babies, they are as hardy as any other species. That is a big "if".
 

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A 10 gallon tank will work fine for 6 months or so; for a wind break if turned on its side in a much larger enclosure. Lol.
What do you mean by wind break in a larger enclosure? A hide if that's what you are calling a wind break should be dark and no see thru sides.
 

Naulsteen

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Two things to understand about any leopard tortoise conversation:
1. We've been importing them into the US since the 1960's from all over their range. For decades people have been mixing the different types. This is why you often see 18 inch "regular' leopards with outgoing personalities, instead of 12 inch leopards that are shy. When you buy a genetic mix, it can go either way. I don't know how much genetic mixing has occurred in your country. You might still be able to find direct imports, or "pure" genetic lines.
2. Almost no one in the entire world starts them correctly. They are not delicate, but just like every other living thing, dehydration will kill them. If you can find properly started, well hydrated babies, they are as hardy as any other species. That is a big "if".
Most of the leopards that are available here are imported and all of them were imported from africa or so they claimed it to be, hence why i would see the leopards get labeled as for example: Kenyan pardalis babcocki, Zambian pardalis babcocki, and even Somalian pardalis babcocki... Refering to their locality where they were bred well... As far as they claimed it to be...

Now, i dont know what's the deal with the Somalian locality but the price is totally on another level, well the locals said that the Somalian is may or may not be a Gpp but many believed it to be Gpp because of the freckles on their charapace and stuff but i remember identifying Gpp is not only about the freckles... And when i saw the specimens the charapace isn't even covered with many freckles on their scutes well not as many as the pure SA Leopards that i've seen in this forum the So-called Somalian that i've encountered here only have 1-3 freckles on each scute and 3 is not even common it's mostly 1 freckles and a few 2's the other scutes would have no freckles at all at times...

So it's just seems suspicious to me it could be just another hybrid Gpb due to years of mixing gens or just a fairly attractive Gpb, I don't know but for me it just feels like a fraud for selling them and claiming it as a may or not may be Gpp while still making the customer to believe it's a future Gpp while still making them much much more expensive than the other babcockis and even exceeding the price of aldabras at times...
 
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Tom

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Most of the leopards that are available here are imported and all of them were imported from africa or so they claimed it to be, hence why i would see the leopards get labeled as for example: Kenyan pardalis babcocki, Zambian pardalis babcocki, and even Somalian pardalis babcocki... Refering to their locality where they were bred well... As far as they claimed it to be...

Now, i dont know what's the deal with the Somalian locality but the price is totally on another level, well the locals said that the Somalian is may or may not be a Gpp but many believed it to be Gpp because of the freckles on their charapace and stuff but i remember identifying Gpp is not only about the freckles... And when i saw the specimens the charapace isn't even covered with many freckles on their scutes well not as many as the pure SA Leopards that i've seen in this forum the So-called Somalian that i've encountered here only have 1-3 freckles on each scute and 3 is not even common it's mostly 1 freckles and a few 2's the other scutes would have no freckles at all at times...

So it's just seems suspicious to me it could be just another hybrid Gpb due to years of mixing gens or just a fairly attractive Gpb, I don't know but for me it just feels like a fraud for selling them and claiming it as a may or not may be Gpp while still making the customer to believe it's a future Gpp while still making them much much more expensive than the other babcockis and even exceeding the price of aldabras at times...
There are 11 "clades" of leopard tortoise from all around the range. The ones in South Africa are known to be bold, outgoing, different shaped, and they grow larger than "regular" leopards. Over here in the US we have "regular" leopards, which is now a mix of all those genetics from all over the range, and we have SA leopards which are a distinct and different type from a single locality that were imported in 1990 and have been bred true for all these years. So the SA leopards here represent just one of those 11 clades. The "regular" leopards here usually represent the genetics of several of these clades.

The Ethiopians and Somalians come from the Northern part of the range and they also grow to gargantuan sizes. We don't have either of these in the US. Importation of leopards and sulcatas was based here in 1998 and as far as we all know, no Somalians or Ethiopians made it in before the ban. I don't know if these are two different clades, or just one clade that is in both countries.
 

Levi the Leopard

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It's unfortunate, the toughest of critters are the ones subjected to the worse abuse.

Take the betta fish for example. These awesome little fish endure captive lives in cups or small, stagnant bowls of tap water. NOT because it's good for them to live that way nor is it proper housing, rather because they happen to be tough enough to endure the abuse longer than other fish can. No one sees an Angelfish in a cup or "betta bowl". Those conditions are just as toxic to them but they can't hold out as long as a betta can. So people say the betta is a "hardy fish" and keep in in the torturous conditions.

So, too, the leopard tortoise isn't a fragile species. It just can't hold up to the desiccating conditions as long as other species can.
 
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