Redfoot and sulcata live together

[willovr]

Hi Redfooter's!!

I want to know if a redfoot can live together with a sulcata?

They can fight or be agressive each other??

Thanks!

 

[pfara]

For the safety of each type of tortoise, I would not recommend keeping them together. Not only is their husbandry different, their temperaments, size differences and places of origin cannot be farther apart.

 

[wellington]

NO. It is really not recommended to mix any species. There are several debates already on this forum if you do a google search, top right of forum you will find some. Most of us would t recommend a sulcata and a leopard and they come from the same place, for the most part. Besides deseases and pathogens that can transmit from one to another, the size of a sully to a RF alone, would make it very dangerous or deadly for the RF. Get a group of RF, they seem to be very social. Want or have a sully, keep it as one, unless you can provide a very large yard to have three or more.

 

[Yvonne G]

They require totally different types of habitats. Can they live together, probably, but eventually one or the other of them will get sick, or will get tipped over, or will stay hidden all day.

I know that we are now touting for new keepers to keep sulcata babies in jungle-like conditions, however this is for the first year of life only. After that, they can start being put outside where they will have a wide open space with lots of sun. The RF must be kept in a well-planted area with quite a bit of moisture and plenty of shade.

 

[Redstrike]

Yvonne really nailed this, I agree 100%.

If you decide to go against the recommendations of the forum members here, I don't think it will end well for the tortoises. You'd have a African giant (150-200 lbs) that evolved in arid climates kept with a South American medium-sized tortoise (20-30lbs) from tropical, humid climates. They don't add up on a number of levels; size, climate, and disease(s).

 

[mike taylor]

I have red footed tortoises and sulcatas . I can tell you that a sulcata will hurt your red foot . I let my sulcata meet my red foot the first thing he did was ram her . The second thing he did was try to bite her . Red foots love cool shaded areas with lots of humidity . Sulcatas love higher temperatures with a little lower humidity as adults .

 

[lynnedit]

Hi Redfooter's!!
I want to know if a redfoot can live together with a sulcata?

They can fight or be agressive each other??
Thanks!

Thank you for asking. Many just go ahead and do it without checking.
As you can see from the previous posts, it is not a good idea for several reasons (different environmental needs, size difference, illnesses, etc.).

 

[Mgridgaway]

My main concern is strictly based on size. As others have said, Sulcatas are likely to eventually hurt Redfoots just because of their sheer size difference. Their temperament may be an issue as well (though I don't feel as comfortable with this statement as I have no experience with Sulcatas, only others' opinions).

As for the idea of housing different species together, as wellington mentioned there is a "debate" going on, but I have yet to see more than anecdotal evidence to support either side (if someone has a study they can forward me, I'd be interested in looking at it). We've heard horror stories, but there are also success stories. Ultimately, it's a decision you're going to have to make for yourself. If you do decide to mix species, be sure to maintain quarantine periods for new animals and watch for signs of stress. Personally, I'm more concerned about matching temperaments and sizes than food and climate. My Leopard has proven time and again that's she's not interested in meat or fruit.

 

[tort_luv_5055]

NO. Please don't mix these two species or any species at all.

First of all your huge sulcata will hurt you redfoot.

Second they will transmit diseases. They both have different immune system created to handle different diseases. If your Redfoot brings in some type of tropical disease, while his immune system can handle it, it could be deadly to your sulcata.

Third They require completely different habitats. Your sulcata needs a humid but desert enclosure. Your redfoot needs a heavily planted tropical environment. Your sulcata will get an RI in the later years of its life with that crazy-high humidity.

Finally, although this might not be as big of a threat, you never know what might happen as far as cross-breeding.

Please don't house these two species together. Eventually one or the other will get sick and die.

 

[Mgridgaway]

To address a few of tort_luv_5055's points:

First of all your huge sulcata will hurt you redfoot.
Most likely, yes.

Second they will transmit diseases. They both have different immune system created to handle different diseases. If your Redfoot brings in some type of tropical disease, while his immune system can handle it, it could be deadly to your sulcata.
Assuming the redfoot is captive bred in the US (which is highly likely) and raised among other captive bred tortoises how is it going to bring in a disease from a country it's never lived in?

Third They require completely different habitats. Your sulcata needs a humid but desert enclosure. Your redfoot needs a heavily planted tropical environment. Your sulcata will get an RI in the later years of its life with that crazy-high humidity.
Different habitats? Fair. Though in an outside habitat you could easily accommodate both (not saying you should, as my previous post indicates). But a Sulcata will get an RI with "that crazy-high humidity?" Show me the proof. Also explain why it doesn't happen in the wild when Sulcatas dig 30 foot burrows that are just as humid.

Please don't house these two species together. Eventually one or the other will get sick and die.
Unproven. Lots of hearsay in both directions. And why only eventually? If a tortoise had a disease that could kill another species, wouldn't it do so sooner rather than later? If two different species lived together for years and then suddenly one died, would you simply chalk it up to "oh, guess that disease that one tortoise had for years finally decided to strike!" That seems unreasonable to me.


To clarify, I'm not advocate for or against mixing species. I just don't like to see so much anecdotal evidence being touted as fact. Several owners report great success mixing species. Several have told horror stories. But there have been absolutely no (as far as I'm aware. Again, if I'm mistaken, please provide me with a copy of the study) controlled experiments dealing with the risk associated with mixing tortoise species.

So until the time comes when someone can prove it definitively, I'm not going to teach the tortoise equivalent of abstinence-only. Instead, I will teach what is likely to increase risk and talk about ways to reduce risk.

 

[tortoisetime565]

No. We have an ongoing argument about leopards and sulcatas. They are closely related in their husbandry and we are still saying No!

 

[zenoandthetortoise]

I don't think Mgridgaway is questioning whether or not the pathogen issue is common knowledge. He seems to want to know if anyone actually has information.

 

[tortoisetime565]

I kept my redfoot my sulcata and russian together for about 4 months. The only issue I had was they would all pile over each other for the heat lamp. I knew I shouldn't have but I also did not have money or space. Now they are in their own Rubbermaid (for another week or two only) and can only see each other when they get on their balcony to bask. Mine NEVER showed any aggression. But it is not worth the health risks. I soak mine together every other day and they don't mind. Also, my sulcata will NOT, yes will NOT!!! Eat if she cannot see my redfoot. I do not know why but she won't. So I make it to were hey can see each other but don't inter mingle. I believe they should be seperated if you can. I mean a little intermingling is okay I'm sure but I would not house them together for long term!

 

[Mgridgaway]

I don't think Mgridgaway is questioning whether or not the pathogen issue is common knowledge. He seems to want to know if anyone actually has information.

Actually, I thought I made my intentions pretty clear with my previous post. Until someone provides conclusive evidence that there is a reasonable predictability that all tortoises of different species living together will die from communicable disease, we should focus more on teaching potential risk and ways to reduce it, instead of shutting people down from the get go.

For instance, instead of saying no, how about:

1) Pay special attention to wild caught tortoises and get them checked out at a vet before considering cohabitation.
2) Maintain quarantine periods for all recent acquisitions
3) Monitor stress levels
4) Provide enough space so that tortoises can seek alone time.
5) Mix species of similar size and temperament. A Sulcata has a strong possibility of being a health risk for any animal smaller than it. Some tortoises are best kept as individuals.

This method is much more constructive and reasonable than "No, never do it because I've heard cohabitation is bad."

 

[tortoisetime565]

I don't think Mgridgaway is questioning whether or not the pathogen issue is common knowledge. He seems to want to know if anyone actually has information.

Actually, I thought I made my intentions pretty clear with my previous post. Until someone provides conclusive evidence that there is a reasonable predictability that all tortoises of different species living together will die from communicable disease, we should focus more on teaching potential risk and ways to reduce it, instead of shutting people down from the get go.

For instance, instead of saying no, how about:

1) Pay special attention to wild caught tortoises and get them checked out at a vet before considering cohabitation.
2) Maintain quarantine periods for all recent acquisitions
3) Monitor stress levels
4) Provide enough space so that tortoises can seek alone time.
5) Mix species of similar size and temperament. A Sulcata has a strong possibility of being a health risk for any animal smaller than it. Some tortoises are best kept as individuals.

This method is much more constructive and reasonable than "No, never do it because I've heard cohabitation is bad."

I really like this! You should also post it on the live thread called "can sulcatas and leopards be housed together." There has been an ongoing argument. This would help widen the horizon!

 

[tort_luv_5055]

Re: RE: Redfoot and sulcata live together

To address a few of tort_luv_5055's points:

First of all your huge sulcata will hurt you redfoot.
Most likely, yes.

Second they will transmit diseases. They both have different immune system created to handle different diseases. If your Redfoot brings in some type of tropical disease, while his immune system can handle it, it could be deadly to your sulcata.
Assuming the redfoot is captive bred in the US (which is highly likely) and raised among other captive bred tortoises how is it going to bring in a disease from a country it's never lived in?

Third They require completely different habitats. Your sulcata needs a humid but desert enclosure. Your redfoot needs a heavily planted tropical environment. Your sulcata will get an RI in the later years of its life with that crazy-high humidity.
Different habitats? Fair. Though in an outside habitat you could easily accommodate both (not saying you should, as my previous post indicates). But a Sulcata will get an RI with "that crazy-high humidity?" Show me the proof. Also explain why it doesn't happen in the wild when Sulcatas dig 30 foot burrows that are just as humid.

Please don't house these two species together. Eventually one or the other will get sick and die.
Unproven. Lots of hearsay in both directions. And why only eventually? If a tortoise had a disease that could kill another species, wouldn't it do so sooner rather than later? If two different species lived together for years and then suddenly one died, would you simply chalk it up to "oh, guess that disease that one tortoise had for years finally decided to strike!" That seems unreasonable to me.


To clarify, I'm not advocate for or against mixing species. I just don't like to see so much anecdotal evidence being touted as fact. Several owners report great success mixing species. Several have told horror stories. But there have been absolutely no (as far as I'm aware. Again, if I'm mistaken, please provide me with a copy of the study) controlled experiments dealing with the risk associated with mixing tortoise species.

So until the time comes when someone can prove it definitively, I'm not going to teach the tortoise equivalent of abstinence-only. Instead, I will teach what is likely to increase risk and talk about ways to reduce risk.

Wow. Ok sorry. I spoke out of line, mostly about rumors that I have heard elsewhere on the forum. I can't quote exact information, do you remember every thread you have ever read? No, I didn't think so.

Listen, I don't keep either of these species. However I have been researching tortoises and learning as much as I can for the past two years. I know it isn't a lot compared to others, but its enough to say I know some.

Here is one group that has posted for the whole world to see. I have learned lots from this site, and believe it is a reliable source after comparing it's information to the information on the forum: "Mixing species should always be avoided due to the risk of disease and injury from different behaviours. Different species of tortoise may also have differing dietary and environmental requirements." Quoted from: http://www.tortoise-protection-group.org.uk/site/63.asp

The humidity? I have heard around the forum, again, I can't quote a direct source, that most tortoises become more prone to Respiratory Infection as they get older, with high levels of humidity. Is this information true? I am not so sure anymore. I just wanted to throw it out there.

Finally, I would like to state that I feel like I was attacked, and although your points were reasonable, it could have been a bit lighter. I'm just a kid, ok? I don't feel like some of this was relevant, more of insult to me then spreading good information to keeping healthy tortoises. I am sorry, please don't be insulted by this, its just how I feel. I'm not trying to stir up trouble. I just feel like I have the right to be heard.

Thank you though. Next time I will think harder before I offer any advice.

---

I don't think Mgridgaway is questioning whether or not the pathogen issue is common knowledge. He seems to want to know if anyone actually has information.

Actually, I thought I made my intentions pretty clear with my previous post. Until someone provides conclusive evidence that there is a reasonable predictability that all tortoises of different species living together will die from communicable disease, we should focus more on teaching potential risk and ways to reduce it, instead of shutting people down from the get go.

For instance, instead of saying no, how about:

1) Pay special attention to wild caught tortoises and get them checked out at a vet before considering cohabitation.
2) Maintain quarantine periods for all recent acquisitions
3) Monitor stress levels
4) Provide enough space so that tortoises can seek alone time.
5) Mix species of similar size and temperament. A Sulcata has a strong possibility of being a health risk for any animal smaller than it. Some tortoises are best kept as individuals.

This method is much more constructive and reasonable than "No, never do it because I've heard cohabitation is bad."

Wait wait wait. "That all tortoises of different species living together will die from communicable disease," Hold on. I thought we were talking about a Redfoot and a Sulcata here. Since when are we discussing the survival rate of every combination of species of tortoise is the world? Are you really going to argue that, let's say, an Angonoka tortoise could be housed with a russian tortoise just because they are of "similar size and temperament"? Sorry, no offense, but I think you need to clarify what species you think can and can't be housed together. Your statement implies that any old species can be mixed as long as they follow your criteria. However, your criteria can't support your claim because your claim isn't specific enough. Continuing on that, the OP asked about RF and Sullies, not the entire race of tortoises. Maybe you should start a new thread for this or something. For now, I think its in the threads best interest to talk about this someplace else.

Thank you for all your advice! I am really expanding on my knowledge of keeping two species together because of you.

 

[Mgridgaway]

Tort_luv_5055, to answer a few of your questions:

First, don't take it personally. You made claims that I think are unfounded and often recited with no evidence to support them. I explained to you why I think your information is wrong. That's the basic premise of a debate. In posts like these, I have a lot to type and many other things I'd rather be doing, so I won't be spending much time trying to convey tone. Have no fear; I have no interest in berating you, only in setting the record straight.

The site you provided seems fine enough from the quick glance I took, but as they provided no sources whatsoever, it's reasonable to expect that they're going off the same common knowledge that everyone else is. More often than not it's fine, but unproven information can slip in there too, and it's very hard to change perceptions once enough people have "learned" it. For example (and full disclosure: this is before my time as a proper tortoise owner), can you believe that just a decade or so ago, the proper way to grow Sulcatas and Leopards was "hot and dry?" For years, this myth perpetuated as fact, and it still finds its way into the ocassional care sheet today.

I've heard conflicting reports that Sulcatas and Leopards are prone to respiratory infection due to humidity since I started owning tortoises. Some of these people are the same that cite the "hot and dry" method of husbandry. Now, I admit I may be wrong here because I do not study tortoise physiology, but it seems unreasonable to me that a fragile hatchling is more RI resistant than a hardy, thriving adult.

Moving on to the next batch.

I think it is reasonable that if someone says "Please don't house these two species together. Eventually one or the other will get sick and die," they should be able to provide a clear, predictable model representing that process. That kind of claim and similar ones require specific evidence that I have yet to see.

Also, I get the point you're trying to make, but I have to say it anyway. Who would house a Ploughshare with a Russian? Not only is a Ploughshare extremely endangered, it's around twice as large.

As for what species can and can't be housed together, I think you misunderstand that post. It was never meant to be taken as gospel. Maybe not even a first draft. It was intended to get people thinking about concerns and considerations for cohabitation. Risks to anticipate. Potential. I don't feel like I have enough experience to qualify every permutation, but I can say that Redfoots and Leopards have the potential to work pretty well together (I've even seen offspring on this very forum).

 

[tort_luv_5055]

Re: RE: Redfoot and sulcata live together

Tort_luv_5055, to answer a few of your questions:

First, don't take it personally. You made claims that I think are unfounded and often recited with no evidence to support them. I explained to you why I think your information is wrong. That's the basic premise of a debate. In posts like these, I have a lot to type and many other things I'd rather be doing, so I won't be spending much time trying to convey tone. Have no fear; I have no interest in berating you, only in setting the record straight.

The site you provided seems fine enough from the quick glance I took, but as they provided no sources whatsoever, it's reasonable to expect that they're going off the same common knowledge that everyone else is. More often than not it's fine, but unproven information can slip in there too, and it's very hard to change perceptions once enough people have "learned" it. For example (and full disclosure: this is before my time as a proper tortoise owner), can you believe that just a decade or so ago, the proper way to grow Sulcatas and Leopards was "hot and dry?" For years, this myth perpetuated as fact, and it still finds its way into the ocassional care sheet today.

I've heard conflicting reports that Sulcatas and Leopards are prone to respiratory infection due to humidity since I started owning tortoises. Some of these people are the same that cite the "hot and dry" method of husbandry. Now, I admit I may be wrong here because I do not study tortoise physiology, but it seems unreasonable to me that a fragile hatchling is more RI resistant than a hardy, thriving adult.

Moving on to the next batch.

I think it is reasonable that if someone says "Please don't house these two species together. Eventually one or the other will get sick and die," they should be able to provide a clear, predictable model representing that process. That kind of claim and similar ones require specific evidence that I have yet to see.

Also, I get the point you're trying to make, but I have to say it anyway. Who would house a Ploughshare with a Russian? Not only is a Ploughshare extremely endangered, it's around twice as large.

As for what species can and can't be housed together, I think you misunderstand that post. It was never meant to be taken as gospel. Maybe not even a first draft. It was intended to get people thinking about concerns and considerations for cohabitation. Risks to anticipate. Potential. I don't feel like I have enough experience to qualify every permutation, but I can say that Redfoots and Leopards have the potential to work pretty well together (I've even seen offspring on this very forum).

Ohhhhh. Ok ok ok. Now I see where you are coming from on this. Its just common knowledge now, but perhaps it's not true. Alright, I got it. I can understand where you are coming from on that.

But still. The OP just wants to know about RF and sullies.
Do you think, that if they followed your criteria, that these two completely different tortoises could be housed together? I doubt it. Maybe we should focus more on reasonable pairs. If you are out there, OP, I think a RF and a Sully can not be housed together. But, perhaps a Herman's and a Greek could be. I still would advise against it. Why? Even after all of these perfectly reasons? Because the risks are high. I see the point you are making about it, comparing the previous knowledge about sulcata's. But that was reasonable to think wasn't it? We kept reading that these tortoises were raised in Africa. So, we assumed that they needed to be raised hot and dry like Africa.

Even if it originally wasn't the best information, it was the most accurate we could get. And some of it is still true!

So who's to say that some of this isn't true? That the risks of raising tortoises, although not proven, could be likely?

Just a thought. Other then that, I agree with you on this.

 

[Mgridgaway]

As I said in my original post way back, I don't think Sulcatas and Redfoots should be housed together. They might be able to when they're relatively the same size, but that won't last very long. As I mentioned before, I think a better combo is Redfoot + Leopard. They're usually both pretty mellow species and are more similar in size.

I wouldn't say the risks are high. What I would say is that plainly: there are risks. But there risks associated with introducing any new tortoise to an existing colony. We (the forum) have also heard stories about how a new tortoise brought in parasites or disease and ended up killing the whole colony.

So, without any evidence, I think the reasonable conclusion is this: there is a potential risk associated with bringing any new tortoise into a space with one you currently own. This is why I stress vigilance in maintaining quarantines and monitoring new tortoises for signs of stress separately before introducing it to your other tortoises. It is often perfectly healthy, but it only takes one sick tortoise with no outward symptoms to make someone have a bad day.

 

[Holycow]

Hello,
I don't want to get too much in the middle of the mix here, but I did want to mention one reason it is generally not advisable to house different species together (even if they are of similar size) is because the animals may harbor bacteria, diseases, parasites, micro organisms, etc. which may be dormant or even helpful in some way to themselves or others of the same species, but may pose a major health problem to another species with a differently evolved immune system. It does not matter if the animals were ever in the wild.
This is the advice I was given by reptile veterinarians who have had to deal with the problems associated with multi-species housing, so I take them at their word. I'm sure there is a vet or two here on the site somewhere that can give some real world examples.
My two cents.
-Jeff