Redfoot basics are basics! (?)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Redfoot NERD

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
3,667
Location (City and/or State)
Tennessee
Please read every word at face value.. thank you all.

Early on - late 1998 - I started raising 3 redfoot tortoises from 2 month old hatchlings.

There was limited info then, especially the internet, and some writings in books at the library.. but still very generic - most all tortoises were painted with the same brush.

As time went on the information base grew, more "species specific" info became available and the WWW became the 'main' source of knowledge(?)/reference!

By the early-mid 2000's these 3 hatchlings were becoming young adults and a WC male was added [ July 2003 ] to what appeared to be 3 females.. although still wasn't sure about one of the females. ( 2 were 10" SCL and she was barely 9" SCL at best ) Anal scute ID was still foreign to me then. At this time I was still relying on 'limited' info and these girls were developing a carapace "look" that was entirely different than the new WC male. He was smooth and even developed and they were [ now commonly know as ] pyramided. Everything else seemed to be fine.

In May '04 this male realized that he had a 'captive' harem.. and hasn't stopped since!

Early July '04 an adult 1.2 was added and the 'learning' began. Due to issues resulting from 'poor' feeding habits the alpha female could barely walk. I went to 'Herpforum' ( Kingsnake ) and asked for help.

Thanks to TerryO the link was found - http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=511274,511274&key=2004

As a result of that "search" I met [ mainly thru email ] a few actual real "hands-on" redfoot keepers/breeders. How much "field" experience any of them had was not a concern to me.. my only concern was "Do they know how to maintain redfoot tortoises to be healthy and happy enough to pro-create?".. in my back yard.
And one even endured my ignorance and took the time to help incubate the eggs so they did hatch! [ even tho' he denies it and will accept the credit ]

So....... when the "basics" are established well enough so that they are happy enough to make babies.. and the babies grow to be healthy and happy and have the same over-all appearence as their WC counter-parts.. that's good enough for me.

If it works don't fix it - maybe that's old-fashioned and an 'out-dated' mindset..?? And as a result it may appear I'm not willing to hear or even consider what others have experienced or said [ or even viewed by some as even accused those as being totally wrong ].. but considering we're dealing with redfoot tortoises that are virtually "bullet-proof" they are capable of enduring most anything. Good or bad.

I am always striving to make 'it' better.. like everyone else. As Carl once told me a few years back.. 'We have much to learn'!

I am and always have been open to information that will make "IT" ( caring for redfoots ) better. But I'm not as good at researching as Mark is.. I'll be happy to read the info if/when I can find it.. but you'll have to help all of us find it first. Surely you don't buy into everything that is out there.. books and/or the internet.

I don't have the years of experience as Carl does.. nor the patience or diplomcy that he has.

And few [ if any ] have the years and shear numbers that Tom Mc has - he was there when the first "Cherryhead" came into the states! How many years ago was that Tom?

Every once in awhile I take a decent picture.

And I stuck my neck out and wrote a Caresheet { determined to raise SMOOTH babies } for the world to see.. one that would be usable for any age or locale - how bright was that?

The point of this is: as long as the 'basics' are met - temps, humidity ( below and above ), lighting, space and diet are met - these little beasts have proven that they can handle a multitude of variables that they have been subjected to from humans.. over how many decades?

Whether we agree or not.....

NERD
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
54,503
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Roger that. Nothing to add.

Some of us seem to like sticking our necks out more than others and some of us have the pics to back up what we are saying. You are guilty on both counts, thankfully.
 

terryo

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
8,972
Location (City and/or State)
Staten Island, New York
It sounds good to me Nerd, BUT, I think that as time goes on we keep learning more and more, weather it's through books that are being written, or internet, or word of mouth....people keep learning new things, and even though one way works, we still can learn more. Are everyone of your hatchlings born perfect? There must be some things that you haven't learned yet, that you would change. It just can't be all so simple and cut and dry, can it? I am still doing research about Redfoots, after almost 4 years with Pio, and I learn something new all the time.
 

Madkins007

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
5,393
Location (City and/or State)
Nebraska
How can you show us that your system is not broken? As you have said, here and on your site, you do not have the years of experience, the numbers of tortoises, etc. as many others using very different systems have. Your clutch sizes and hatching rates, according to you on your site and communications to others, are not 'industry standard', even when the weather cooperates (I notice your site no longer mentions this.)

I am not saying your system is bad, just wondering how you come to the conclusion that it "would be usable for any age or locale"?

You said "So....... when the "basics" are established well enough so that they are happy enough to make babies.. and the babies grow to be healthy and happy and have the same over-all appearence as their WC counter-parts.. that's good enough for me."

That really does not cut it. You say these are an easy species, 'bullet proof' in your terms, but not everyone is getting good clutch sizes, etc. Smooth shells can hide many organ problems that may not show up until an autopsy is done.

Smooth shells are a good sign and you are rightfully proud of your results, but as a sign of proof, they really only prove that you have decent humidity- something many people struggle with. Suggesting that a bumpy shell is a sign that you are doing something wrong- which is what you suggest by demanding photos- is actually rather cruel to those who live in much of the US.

Maybe it is not broken- does that mean it cannot be made better?

And isn't that kind of the point of having a forum like this?
 

N2TORTS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
8,803
Terry ..... very well written and thought out....Different side of you?
Love it !
And ...Mark has some valid points too and I regard him and his ideas highly too! One thing I might add and as a little reminder there were others keeping RF's and Cherrys ...even breeding them in the 80's till present day , but just chose to keep out of the lime light. Its a Big world out there ...and not everyone likes to share their experiences, good or bad ...rather it be judgement or just not wanting the attention.
Its nice to see you give compliments to others , with out a stab..or snobbyish.
Bottom line we all learn from each other ....... and our experiences good or bad.
I do belive in your program ....and you diffenitly produce *AWESOME * colored redfoots ... which Iam proud to own two of them ! ...
I dig the forum and the folks invloved with it ( and there are sooo many kind and happy people .. its awesome and keeps the faith for me ) .It has gave me alot of help with in my own life, torts or other
( as I have met a wonderful person thru here ..) . I like to share my hobbies and passion for torts and I guess " makes one feel good " when someone compliments your hard work ... I like to share my tort photos ( probably too much) and ideas ...But it has helped me cope with some of lifes ups and downs . One day it would be fun to have a USA TORT PARTY .... with ALL a chance for all of us to meet:)
I Truley DIg all of you and thank you for the info , laughter , compliments ... and smiles ....
NICE FOLKS MAKE LIFE ALOT BETTER !
HAppy Tort~N
JD~:)
I have been blessed enough this year to have 7 Cherry eggs this year ,,, and have been waiting a long time from her for these ....We shall see how much Iam learning ...;)
 

Madkins007

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
5,393
Location (City and/or State)
Nebraska
This is really just a difference in philosophy- one side is saying that things are good (not necessarily perfect) as they are. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"- a conservative viewpoint.

The other side is saying that there is room for AND a NEED for improvement or growth. "Can we do it better?"- a progressive viewpoint.

In real life, there is not often a huge difference between conservatives and progressives most of the time but making platform statements and having debates highlights whatever differences there are between them.

In real life, I refer people to Terry's site all the time, even though I don't agree with it completely (and I rarely make a comment like that when I do). On the other hand, I also had problems trying to follow his plan as written so I tried to find other things that worked better for me.
 

terryo

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
8,972
Location (City and/or State)
Staten Island, New York
When I was thinking of getting a tortoise, I did plenty of research first...then got Pio. One of the sites I came across was Terry K's. (Nerd). Out of all the care sheets, his was the easiest to follow for a new tortoise keeper..IMHO. I followed the feeding schedule exclusively until I put him outside for the summer last year and he started to find worms, bugs, and eating what was in his enclosure. When he was a hatchling, I tried to make the enclosure the way he had described on his site, but it just wouldn't hold the humidity for me, and since I've always used vivariums for boxies when they had to be inside, I did the same for Pio. Also on his care sheets he said no UVB, but instead of a plain plant light I use a 5.0 UVB. I didn't even know a heat emitter existed until he told me about it. So I did keep it exactly like he said ...one side the heat emitter and the other side the long tube light. I also incorporated other things of my own thinking besides using Nerds care sheet. So far so good, and he is healthy and looking good too. If I get another one, I will definitely use his caresheets again, but I think we just have to keep an open mind and incorporate changes as they come along.

Every now and then I take a decent picture....you're joking ...right??
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
54,503
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
I hope that I'm not confused about whose talking about who, but isn't Terry K on the cutting edge of progressive thinking and the "can we do it better" mind set? I mean, isn't that what he just explained. Just a few years ago he was doing it wrong and had to figure out how to do it better. It only took him a few years. It took me 20!!!

If you've ever talked to Terry K, you know that he is constantly asking questions and bouncing ideas. He is a main planter of idea-seeds in MY head. He's always looking for new info to refute or back up new theories. I seriously can't think of anyone more "progressive" than he. This is not a** kissing. I stand to gain nothing from Terry, but he and I have had many in depth conversations about this very thing.
 

Candy

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
3,990
Location (City and/or State)
Alhambra, CA
I hope that I'm not confused about whose talking about who, but isn't Terry K on the cutting edge of progressive thinking and the "can we do it better" mind set

I'm sorry Tom but I can't agree with you on this one. :(
 

Redfoot NERD

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
3,667
Location (City and/or State)
Tennessee
TerryO sent me an email claiming someone told her that Pio is a female.. so I was looking for that post and came across this one.

Of course I agree with Tom.. because we have talked about his 'projects' and I have encouraged and challenged him a number of times --- everytime we talk in fact.

Of course there are as many different ways to interpret what I wrote.. as there are people reading it.. that's why I asked it to be read at face value. Had I wanted it to be open to "DEBATE".. I would have posted it accordingly. I was trying to post what I have experience and what it had created - and the fact that others have experienced like results.

If someone hasn't spoken with anyone on the phone or face to face, can you really.. with all honesty.. really say you don't agree with them? - without trying to prove them wrong to back your own beliefs? Is that being objective or reading at face value?

WHO WAS IT THAT "REVISED" THEIR CARESHEET A FEW MONTHS BACK? - TO FILL ANY POSSIBLE 'GAPS' THAT MAY HAVE OCCURRED IN THE PAST 5 YEARS!

http://www.turtletary.com/redfootcare.htm

And consider this:.. "most" of the "NEW" ideas that are presented these days I've most likely already tried or experienced.. both personally and in accordance with what other breeders have shared with me that they have tried and experienced also.

Anyone can accept my definition of 'basics' or not.. that's their choice.. the title of this thread IS "Redfoot basics are basics (?)" ---- anyone notice the ( ? ) ( question mark ? ) ???

BTW.. if someone has a better "mouse-trap".. I would think they would WANT to show it and demonstrate how it works! Without even being asked............

NERD
 

harris

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 24, 2009
Messages
981
Location (City and/or State)
Ohio
This thread died 5 months ago, after surviving a little over 13 hours. Who are you arguing with or preaching to (?) ((question mark))???
 

Redfoot NERD

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
3,667
Location (City and/or State)
Tennessee
I thot this was important enough to recycle so I have. Hopefully more will read it from the start with an objective open mind and take it at face value.

Has anyone noticed that there are more and more lately that would rather attack [ maybe not more.. but their responses are more intense by taking things out of context, off topic, etc. ] the other person than consider the matter at hand and then.. respond with respect for the other persons' view?

Again this is not intended to be a debate and should not be considered as such. The original post was a statement and then followed with a question.

NERD
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top