Redfoot Care (in depth)

[shawngt2]

Everyone (and by everyone I mean only people that have good things to add to this topic - no battle, just discussion) =;-> (P.S. Also follows with all my future posts). If you don't have something positive to add to this thread, move to the next.

Ok, with that being said I will be refering a lot to the redfoots.com care recommendations because that is what I'm doing for my guy/girl, I just need clarification on a few things...You know, to understand the reasoning.
__________________________________
Calcium: I'm wonder how hatchlings use the calcium in the food without vit D exposure until 6 months old before they ever get any Vit D in protein fed later? Isn't it supposed to be unusable without D?

Protein: Why are we not feeding protein until 6 months of age?

Supplements: Why do we not begin supplementing until 6 months of age?

6 months of age appears to be quite a huge landmark and I'm just trying to make sense of it. I'm not knocking ANY decisions, just asking questions. I assume it's because they must spend most of their time in hiding and not eating any protein until approx. that time.

Shawngt2

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Everyone (and by everyone I mean only people that have good things to add to this topic - no battle, just discussion) =;-> (P.S. Also follows with all my future posts). If you don't have something positive to add to this thread, move to the next.

Ok, with that being said I will be refering a lot to the redfoots.com care recommendations because that is what I'm doing for my guy/girl, I just need clarification on a few things...You know, to understand the reasoning.
__________________________________
Calcium: I'm wonder how hatchlings use the calcium in the food without vit D exposure until 6 months old before they ever get any Vit D in protein fed later? Isn't it supposed to be unusable without D?

Protein: Why are we not feeding protein until 6 months of age?

Supplements: Why do we not begin supplementing until 6 months of age?

6 months of age appears to be quite a huge landmark and I'm just trying to make sense of it. I'm not knocking ANY decisions, just asking questions. I assume it's because they must spend most of their time in hiding and not eating any protein until approx. that time.

Shawngt2

You've answered your own Q? Shawn!

It's that simple. These are babies that are spending time hidden, trying to survive.. munching bugs, grubs and sprouts - all of which provide a source of D vit in a form of protein. So God has provided the balance.... and man tries to help by overdosing everything!

Less is more...

NERD

 

[elegans]

I don't recall the last time God, fed, cleaned, soaked or did anything else for my tortoises? So untill he/she does how about leaving him/her out of the game? Douglas Beard / Flora & Fauna

 

[shawngt2]

Ok, Now I'm really confused. You mentioned that I answered my own question, but my question was why we don't give protein in the first 6 months (except plant protein, which is incomplete for animal use ie. not all amino acids present). Your theory mentioned that they do eat protein when they are hiding (bugs).

Please Nerd, my question is still unanswered. Why am I not feeding any protein for the first 6 months (minus the plant protein which isn't complete protein) as recommended by you. Are you suggesting that we give worms or bugs to them?

I completely understand about overdoing it. Almost every reptile shop has vitamins available of all kinds and of course we are all trained to think vitamins are a good thing. They are good if they are replacing what you can't get in your diet. It's just unfortunate that the reptile industry uses this to their advantage...

Thanks,

Shawn

 

[Josh]

Douglas,
In this case God can be synonymous with Mother Nature...there's no need to be offended by someone referring to those natural processes that just seem to work themselves out.

Terry,
I agree with Shawn here... If the hatchlings are eating bugs in the wild but no protein or supplements in capitivity, how does that match up? Are you saying it's purely because of the great mix of plant matter they are getting?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Douglas,
In this case God can be synonymous with Mother Nature...there's no need to be offended by someone referring to those natural processes that just seem to work themselves out.

Terry,
I agree with Shawn here... If the hatchlings are eating bugs in the wild but no protein or supplements in capitivity, how does that match up? Are you saying it's purely because of the great mix of plant matter they are getting?

Plant 'protein' is a source of D vitamin. At that size ( 6 month's ) the intake from their diet is very small.. AND.. I understand that the 'yolk', although completely absorbed, is a source of nutrients for awhile also. So of course Josh the higher in calcium, etc. content the greens have that they consume.. as early as possible.. the better! Then at the 6 month old 'size' is when we start adding "additional" amounts of D in the form of animal protein which is much higher concentrated. But not "supplements"!

As stated in the Turtletary caresheet:

We believe it's too easy to "over-supplement" the first year.. especially!!!
In fact.. quoting a major sulcata breeder..

"One of the biggest medical problems..
with hatchling tortoises today.. is overdosing of vitamins."

So I'm walking a fine line with these 'parameters':

1) to keep the hatchling healthy

2) to keep the inexperienced keeper from "falling prey" to the pet industry and old 'outdated' internet info found [ as a result of those that advocate.. "research-research-research" ].. which is what has caused this flood of "unhealthy" hatchlings in the first place!

When I say walking a fine line I also have to make it as simple as possible also. Then factor in the human nature that wants to improve on what has already been proven to work.. [ so here comes the "opposition" AGAIN ].....

I've got your "hat" on Robyn!!! And I'm not sweating..

Terry

 

[Yvonne G]

I have to make it as simple as possible also. Then factor in the human nature that wants to improve on what has already been proven to work..
Terry

This is why, when advising new tortoise keepers what to feed their new tortoise, I NEVER, NEVER use the word "lettuce". A new keeper hears that word and automatically thinks, "iceburg." Then, "How easy is that!!"

Yvonne

 

[shawngt2]

Terry, Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for. Reasons so I can understand most of your decisions. It makes me feel more comfortable understanding 'why' vs just doing what someone recommends... It only benifits the red foot more.

Shawn

I have to make it as simple as possible also. Then factor in the human nature that wants to improve on what has already been proven to work..
Terry

This is why, when advising new tortoise keepers what to feed their new tortoise, I NEVER, NEVER use the word "lettuce". A new keeper hears that word and automatically thinks, "iceburg." Then, "How easy is that!!"

Yvonne

 

[elegans]

Plant 'protein' is a source of D vitamin. At that size ( 6 month's ) the intake from their diet is very small.. AND.. I understand that the 'yolk', although completely absorbed, is a source of nutrients for awhile also. So of course Josh the higher in calcium, etc. content the greens have that they consume.. as early as possible.. the better! Then at the 6 month old 'size' is when we start adding "additional" amounts of D in the form of animal protein which is much higher concentrated. But not "supplements"!

As stated in the Turtletary caresheet:

We believe it's too easy to "over-supplement" the first year.. especially!!!
In fact.. quoting a major sulcata breeder..

"One of the biggest medical problems..
with hatchling tortoises today.. is overdosing of vitamins."

So I'm walking a fine line with these 'parameters':

1) to keep the hatchling healthy

2) to keep the inexperienced keeper from "falling prey" to the pet industry and old 'outdated' internet info found [ as a result of those that advocate.. "research-research-research" ].. which is what has caused this flood of "unhealthy" hatchlings in the first place!

When I say walking a fine line I also have to make it as simple as possible also. Then factor in the human nature that wants to improve on what has already been proven to work.. [ so here comes the "opposition" AGAIN ].....

I've got your "hat" on Robyn!!! And I'm not sweating..

Terry

OK so you have said this again. So what empirical evidence do you have to back up your claims? Hypo and hyper vitaminosis present themselves the same way. Simple is always good, but again there is not only one way to raise a redfoot. Douglas

 

[Crazy1]

Ok I've tried to stay out of this one. This is not the debate thread. So here is the Miriam Webster online dictionary definition for Emperical evidence.
empirical means: 1 : originating in or based on observation or experience <empirical data> 2 : relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory <an empirical basis for the theory> 3 : capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment <empirical laws>

Redfoot NERD has Showed pics of his documented outcomes with Redfoots. Thus observation and experience.
I don't think anyone has ever said there is only one way to raise a redfoot. Just look on the net there are many.
Advocating for what you believe and not against what others believe makes a much better fit.
Now if this is to continue in this direction I feel it should be taken to the debate forum. That's my take on it.

 

[JustAnja]

Terry may I ask exactly how long you have been raising Redfoots?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Terry may I ask exactly how long you have been raising Redfoots?

Bought the first 3 in Dec. '98.. 10/98 hatchlings.

They laid their first eggs in 8/04.

First hatchling..

Most recent pic.. 8/07..

Sorry Anja.. more than you asked for..

Terry K

 

[Redfootedboxturtles]

Terry! That is no where near exact enough! Oh wait..... never mind.... = )

 

[Redfootedboxturtles]

I also think this should be moved to the debate.

Now this is a Conversation forum. So please add more to the conversation then criticisms.

 

[shawngt2]

So you all know, I had a good 2 hour conversation on the phone with Terry last night - very constructive. I have a much more thorough understanding behind the decisions that were made. A lot of the decisions were based on experience. Terry, maybe on your site along with all the directions in redfoot care you can also add a useful fact on WHY you choose to recommend certain things. (ie. feeding regime, because it insures a regulated amount of each food group so you know what works based on outcome vs having the tortoise eat whatever it wants [like it eating protein daily and leaving the greens behind]) or (No supplements or protein for the first 6 months because of the reasons you descibed in the previous post). ONE central page that will have your recommendations, reasoning and experience behind every decision.

Thanks again for the conversation. Let this be a public appology if I gave you a hard time previously. I learned a lot from you last night. There's also a lot others can learn by this added information!

Shawn

 

[Redfoot NERD]

So you all know, I had a good 2 hour conversation on the phone with Terry last night - very constructive. I have a much more thorough understanding behind the decisions that were made. A lot of the decisions were based on experience. Terry, maybe on your site along with all the directions in redfoot care you can also add a useful fact on WHY you choose to recommend certain things. (ie. feeding regime, because it insures a regulated amount of each food group so you know what works based on outcome vs having the tortoise eat whatever it wants [like it eating protein daily and leaving the greens behind]) or (No supplements or protein for the first 6 months because of the reasons you descibed in the previous post). ONE central page that will have your recommendations, reasoning and experience behind every decision.

Thanks again for the conversation. Let this be a public appology if I gave you a hard time previously. I learned a lot from you last night. There's also a lot others can learn by this added information!

Shawn

Good to hear Shawn.. thank you.

Our conversation was a learning experience for me too.

Terry K - aka NERD

 

[shawngt2]

Awesome.

Hey, I ran into this add a few months back and this guy had this redfoot for 2 years. He looked to be in great shape and I was curious and asked him what he did to take care of him. Here are pictures and his response. For reference and discussion. It's great to see other methods that work with proof like this.

His resonse to me asking his care routine;

"""I fed them dandelion greens, romain, spinach, carrots, squash,( very little berry of any kind that is not too exotic is ok in small ammounts as a treat most fruits are ok as a treat in small ammounts you dont want to give them too much sugar) endive, chicori, some times I give them beans fresh ones mostly green beans, a lot of these veggies have enough protien to keep them going but I like to feed mine a few earth worms a month about twice a week ( BUY THEM FROM A CLEAN REPUTABLE BAIT SHOP ) dont feed them crickets and all live foods they sell at the pet stores. I DO NOT USE SUPPLEMENTS They are not needed big waist of cash and if they are fed properly they will do more damage than good because you will be over doing the vits and minerals. This can cause kidney, gallbladder problems or failure as well as gout. This will suck for you and the tort

Another thing is bedding it is best to use the husk from coconuts but when using this make sure it is always clean and not in the torts eyes. You might have to make sur ethe eyes are clean from the husk if not clean them with some warm water and a swab. I like the husk because they can burry in it. The husk will stay damp and this is very good for shell development.

Water WATER IS VERY IMPORTANT make sure it is clean cool and NEVER OUT They live for water. All the care sites dont mention this but it is very important for their health and shell. make sure they can soak in and drink from the dish.""""

Interesting... Obviously there are some no no's in his raising but it's nice to know that they aren't THAT sensitive to getting MBD. More proof that supplements are not needed. Obviously surprised with some of the items being fed but maybe it is possible that they don't need much fruit and protein? He only gave worms and sounds like fruit wasn't that often. Maybe this is another method that works? Of course I'm not sure how consistent he was with this diet.

Shawn

 

[shawngt2]

Here's some photos of my setup (obviously redfoots.com influenced) and my little guy (obviously cherryhead).

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm curious why you don't have substrate over the whole bottom of the habitat?

Yvonne

 

[shawngt2]

He spends most of his time in the hide and it's easier to clean this way. When he's older and out more, I will have the entire bottom filled.