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Redfoot care sheet draft(PLEASE CRITIQUE!)

Discussion in 'Redfoot and yellowfoot tortoises' started by TechnoCheese, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. TechnoCheese

    TechnoCheese Well-Known Member

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    Just use one picture with those? That’s a really good idea! And, it’ll save me 1-2 hours of trying to find every single picture and add it in when I’m trying to post it on other sites, lol
  2. TechnoCheese

    TechnoCheese Well-Known Member

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    Here’s another great pyramiding thread I forgot to include-
    https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/what-is-and-what-causes-pyramiding.170559/

    “Me: The basking comment is misleading. They are documented to bask in the wild throughout their range. They most often bask in the morning, after a rain, or after a cold snap. They also get a lot of UVB since it can penetrate a fairly thick leaf layer (one of the hard things to remember about infrared and ultraviolet light is that it does not work quite the same as the colors we can see. For example, infrared goes through things like black plastic, while UVB is blocked by glass and even some fine mesh screen.) It is true that you don't need a 'hot spot', but these generally don't work for any tortoise since they don't let the tortoise completely and evenly warm up. (There are some great thermal images showing this on the Tortoise Trust site.)”
    “Warmth and humidity are really hard for beginners and there are a lot of ways to do it, and a lot of traps to watch out for. We DO want to avoid chilling our torts, but one of the problems we can run into is a damp, clammy substrate and overhead heating. That can result in a warm back but a cold belly- which will cause health and digestive issues.”

    Thanks for the info! With this being said, would you recommend a basking light? Or would a UVB light be enough to have light without a “hot spot”?

    How would the “cold belly” problem be fixed? Just making sure the surface of the substrate is dryer than the substrate under it, so that you can have a relatively dry substrate and still have humidity?

    “Me: Misting the tank and torts can be a bad thing if it reduces the temps. It is also a very temporary solution. It is better to find a way to provide warm humidity on an ongoing basis. There are several ways to do this, but they take some discussion and planning.
    Soaking babies is actually kind of controversial even though it may not seem like it here or in other discussion areas. My personal opinion is that as long as my humidities are good, the food is fresh and has moisture in it, and the poop is wet, I just do a weekly soak in water I keep warm.”

    I do agree that soaking can be taken down a few notches for enclosures that are correctly set up, but this care sheet was written more for people that I don’t exactly trust with having a correct enclosure. More than a few people decided it would be a good idea to buy a redfoot from a reptile expo without doing any research or setting up beforehand, and even though I gave this care sheet to them, only one of them has managed to create a closed chamber so far. However, with the ones that are being frequently soaked, it seems to be dramatically reducing their pyramiding until they can get a proper set up. What are the specific cons of soaking?

    Thank you so much for the input! I’ll definitely make some changes :)
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  3. Blackdog1714

    Blackdog1714 Active Member

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    Wow! Based on this I figure ion a few years you could be published. Keep it up!
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  4. TechnoCheese

    TechnoCheese Well-Known Member

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    My Sulcata gets fed almost every day, all that he can eat. He always has hay available, and he occasionally gets mazuri which, to my understanding, is relatively high in protein. He is also kept in a closed chamber enclosure with a flood lamp that keeps basking temps around 95-105, a CHE that keeps the corners 80-90 depending on the season, and the spot below it 90-105, again, depending on the season. He also has a tube fluorescent uvb.

    He is currently growing at a relatively fast rate, and will soon reach 9 inches. He is growing perfectly smooth, except for the pyramiding at the very top from when I first got him and didn’t at all understand how a closed chamber worked, and the humidity was usually 30-50%. IMG_1903.jpg IMG_1904.jpg Here’s an almost year old picture where you can kind of see the pyramiding- IMG_0391.jpg
    Obviously my one tortoise isn’t proof, but it does support the argument that humidity is the main factor in pyramiding.
  5. Yvonne G

    Yvonne G Old Timer TFO Admin 10 Year Member! Platinum Supporter

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    Macy: Maybe you could put the pictures at the end with a caption to go with each.
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  6. Yvonne G

    Yvonne G Old Timer TFO Admin 10 Year Member! Platinum Supporter

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    Mark (madkins007 ) wasn't on the forum during the time of Tom's experiments with humidity and pyramiding.
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  7. Madkins007

    Madkins007 Well-Known Member Moderator 10 Year Member!

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    Its a beautiful tort!

    Look, I am just a hobbyist researcher, trying really hard to find the best information about a lot of topics I can. I am the first to admit that the more I research, the more complicated things get. I am not persuaded by the 'humidity rules' research as much as I am by the 'growth rate' studies but I am still frustrated that there is not a clear plan to deal with it.
  8. Redstrike

    Redstrike Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    I didn't provide much because I felt Madkins007 and cdmay along with others provided you tremendous feedback. I also think you did a fantastic job on this and want to thank you for contributing such a wonderful sheet! Well done!
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  9. TechnoCheese

    TechnoCheese Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much!
  10. domalle

    domalle Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Supporter

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    The nomenclatural designation for the Red-Footed tortoise species name was amended in 2013 to carbonarius. A followup paper in 2014 (The gender of the tortoise genus Chelonoidis Fitzinger, 1835 (Testudines: Testudinidae) further explored the issue. Once the genus name Chelonoidis was elevated to full generic status from Geochelone, the change from carbonaria to carbonarius was indicated. Likewise the Yellowfooted tortoise species name changed from denticulata to denticulatus.

    As anyone who follows taxonomic issues knows, expect further changes. Especially when the distinct Cherryhead Redfoot is finally separated out and formally recognized and categorized.

    Family - Testudinidae

    Genus - Chelonoidis

    Species - carbonarius

    Note: Taxonomic groups above genus are capitalized but not italicized. I included the Family name Testudinidae above to show the correct ending which is always plural.
  11. TechnoCheese

    TechnoCheese Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! Man, taxonomy is confusing, lol
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  12. jsheffield

    jsheffield Well-Known Member TFO Supporter Platinum Supporter

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    Thanks for the caresheet ... I appreciate the time and thought that went into your work, and also love having multiple perspectives on redfoot care on TFO.

    Jamie
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  13. Toddrickfl1

    Toddrickfl1 Well-Known Member TFO Supporter

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    Thanks for the care sheet!
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  14. CarolM

    CarolM Well-Known Member

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    I do not own redfoots, but I loved it. Especially the pictures. I think it covered the basics with some interesting info thrown in and for a newbie as a starting point, it certainly puts them on the right track. Until they can do their own research and make up their own minds. Although I cannot imagine that there would be more that needs to be added.
    BTW I gave it an A+++ was so impressed on the amount of work you put in.
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  15. TechnoCheese

    TechnoCheese Well-Known Member

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    Thank you! Making it a starting point for new owners was really what I wanted to do, so that’s great to hear!
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  16. Madkins007

    Madkins007 Well-Known Member Moderator 10 Year Member!

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    I remember them.
    1. Darn. I usually get personalized messages from the High Committee on Tortoise Scientific Names when they do stuff like this so I can approve it or not. Musta gotten lost in my Spam folder.

    2. My personal best guess for changing the categories is that they may break Northern and Southerns apart based on things like average size, shell shape, and carapace coloration. If they do that, then Eastern Brazilians MAY get broken out as well due to mottling, the slightly enlarged nose, and the elbow spur. The thing that confuses me is that locals in cherry-head range talk about red redfoots and yellow redfoots. The red ones are what we call 'cherry heads' and the yellows are more like a normal redfoot. What I don't know is if the 'yellows' have the elbow spur, enlarged nose, mottling, etc. If they do, then red and yellow Eastern Brazilians are just a color phase of each other, and if one is a different species than both are. If not, then the 'red' version may be a different species or at least a subspecies.
  17. Madkins007

    Madkins007 Well-Known Member Moderator 10 Year Member!

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    OK, I generally understand scientific nomenclature, and know that the earliest published name is generally considered the 'right' one, which is why Spix's naming them 'carbonaria' in 1824 'wins' over other people calling them things like boiei or tabulata, but carbonarius is not in its history at all. So... is it a gender ending or a singular/plural ending or what?
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  18. domalle

    domalle Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Supporter

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    The paper I cited is short and available on the Reptile Database in the Redfoot section. The taxonomic changes have been codified and accepted by The Turtles of the World Annotated Checklist and Atlas of Taxonomy, Synonymy, Distribution and Conservation Status (8th Ed.) 2017 (Chelonian Research Monograph).

    I should warn anyone who goes down the taxonomy rabbit hole, you may never find your way out again.

    I have been trying to get the Reptile Database to correct misidentifications in their tortoise photo section to no avail but they are a good resource nonetheless.


    BTW Mark agree with your insights on rapid growth and pyramiding and am familiar with the studies you cite. Just prepare to get body slammed by the purveyors of the prevailing dogma, orthodoxy and true religion.
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  19. domalle

    domalle Well-Known Member 5 Year Member Platinum Supporter

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    There are Brazilian 'Northern' Redfoots in the Brazilian Amazon. There are Brazilian 'Southern' Redfoots in the Pantanal Region. There are Brazilian 'Eastern' Redfoots (Cherryheads) in the Bahia Region. All of these are widely transported all over in country, kept as pets, and released haphazardly or escape back into the wilds, not necessarily the areas they originated. The map makes it appear that the Central Brazilian Region is exclusively Yellowfoot range despite the striping. Until widespread scientific research is conducted, which is unlikely, on all of these populations, and others still unknown, none of this will ever be conclusive. And sale in the pet trade and interbreeding in captivity in Brazil and around the world have polluted the varied gene pools and made matters worse if not impossible to ever sort out scientifically with any degree of certainty. We are literally loving these animals, and what they once were, to death.
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  20. TechnoCheese

    TechnoCheese Well-Known Member

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    If no one has any objections or advice to add, I’ll begin putting together the semi-final version of this care sheet :)
    jsheffield likes this.
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