Look't the legs -
Redfoot Caresheet.. w/results?
- Thread starter Redfoot NERD
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over feeding
Hmm...after looking at this tortoise I would not conclude that the shape of its shell is from overfeeding.
Many redfoots--females especially-- develop a round, domed carapace. This is just a common variation that has nothing to do with diet or how much it was fed. I have an enormous female cherryhead that
had a very rounded carapace when she was a 3 inch import. As she grew she continued this trend and now is a highly domed and mostly round looking adult. Two other females that I got at the same time and that were about the same size grew to be perfect adults but with different shaped shells. All are flawless adults but they are not exactly the same in appearence.
On the other hand, many male redfoots (of all forms) develop a flat topped and elongated shell. This also has nothing to do with diet but again, is just a fairly common variation.
Hmm...after looking at this tortoise I would not conclude that the shape of its shell is from overfeeding.
Many redfoots--females especially-- develop a round, domed carapace. This is just a common variation that has nothing to do with diet or how much it was fed. I have an enormous female cherryhead that
had a very rounded carapace when she was a 3 inch import. As she grew she continued this trend and now is a highly domed and mostly round looking adult. Two other females that I got at the same time and that were about the same size grew to be perfect adults but with different shaped shells. All are flawless adults but they are not exactly the same in appearence.
On the other hand, many male redfoots (of all forms) develop a flat topped and elongated shell. This also has nothing to do with diet but again, is just a fairly common variation.
RE: over feeding
Carl we're not talking about the 'shape' of the carapace. I agree.. some have different shapes than others. Females are 'domed' egg-makers.. and males do have the 'flat-tops'.
I'm talking about the "growth-height" and 'space' between the individual scutes. The "height" [ as you know ] is referred to as pyramiding.. and the 'space' is a result of captive "over-feeding" - my experience anyway.
Terry K
cdmay said:
Carl we're not talking about the 'shape' of the carapace. I agree.. some have different shapes than others. Females are 'domed' egg-makers.. and males do have the 'flat-tops'.
I'm talking about the "growth-height" and 'space' between the individual scutes. The "height" [ as you know ] is referred to as pyramiding.. and the 'space' is a result of captive "over-feeding" - my experience anyway.
Terry K
RE: over feeding
I see what your saying but here again, that may or may not have anything to do with a captive diet.
I wouldn't really call this tortoise pyramided even though the scute centers are not perfectly flat. It is not unusual to see wild imported adults that have shells exactly like this one.
Like I said before, there is tremendous plasticity and variation with redfoots (some populations are REALLY variable!) and so even with optimum care you may not get that 'perfectly smooth' carapace that some people think all wild redfoots possess.
Regardless, it is a gorgeous tortoise and I would bet that by the time it is fully adult no one will be complaining about its carapace.
I see what your saying but here again, that may or may not have anything to do with a captive diet.
I wouldn't really call this tortoise pyramided even though the scute centers are not perfectly flat. It is not unusual to see wild imported adults that have shells exactly like this one.
Like I said before, there is tremendous plasticity and variation with redfoots (some populations are REALLY variable!) and so even with optimum care you may not get that 'perfectly smooth' carapace that some people think all wild redfoots possess.
Regardless, it is a gorgeous tortoise and I would bet that by the time it is fully adult no one will be complaining about its carapace.
RE: over feeding
Captive diet= offered and allowed to eat too much. Again there are always going to be exceptions and extremes. Why take issue? Let's keep it simple.
Terry K
cdmay said:
Captive diet= offered and allowed to eat too much. Again there are always going to be exceptions and extremes. Why take issue? Let's keep it simple.
Terry K
RE: over feeding
Not taking issue.
But, there are many of us who acheive similar results without making absolute statements about diets or how much they should or should not be fed.
I know of, or have known of, numerous keepers and breeders who feed their animals all they want and get 'perfect' growth from their animals.
These folks have known about humidity and a good diet for decades and have got good results for many years. In addition, these guys (like myself) get very nearly 100% fertility and hatching from eggs their adults produce. Most of these adults have been raised from small juveniles...with typically very nice and natural appearing shells.
For me, the issue is humidity (which you have learned of) and diet.
But humidity is by far the important factor if the diet is reasonable.
By reasonable I mean not overloaded with fats, meats or commercially prepared 'chows'. I have never had an issue with feeding ad lib as long as the diet is high in fiber and has a good calcium to phosphorus ratio and is otherwise balanced.
Overfeeding is bad...IF you are feeding crap or are really overdoing it.
But none of the animals featured in this post show signs of poor manangement in any way. Pointing out some minor variation and saying "Aha! a victim of overfeeding!" is nonsense and misleading.
Not taking issue.
But, there are many of us who acheive similar results without making absolute statements about diets or how much they should or should not be fed.
I know of, or have known of, numerous keepers and breeders who feed their animals all they want and get 'perfect' growth from their animals.
These folks have known about humidity and a good diet for decades and have got good results for many years. In addition, these guys (like myself) get very nearly 100% fertility and hatching from eggs their adults produce. Most of these adults have been raised from small juveniles...with typically very nice and natural appearing shells.
For me, the issue is humidity (which you have learned of) and diet.
But humidity is by far the important factor if the diet is reasonable.
By reasonable I mean not overloaded with fats, meats or commercially prepared 'chows'. I have never had an issue with feeding ad lib as long as the diet is high in fiber and has a good calcium to phosphorus ratio and is otherwise balanced.
Overfeeding is bad...IF you are feeding crap or are really overdoing it.
But none of the animals featured in this post show signs of poor manangement in any way. Pointing out some minor variation and saying "Aha! a victim of overfeeding!" is nonsense and misleading.
Carl ( cdmay ) has been my MENTOR for the best part of 5 YEARS. I find it interesting [ although he may deny it ] that he is accusing me of nonsense and misleading claims.. most of which I learned from him. And isn't there a little difference between "...it looks like a little "over-feeding" has occured." and "Aha! a victim of overfeeding!" Is not that nonsense and embellished just a tad.. aka misleading?
Carl is saying the same things I am! Most of the "new" redfoot keepers don't know the difference between good and bad and/or what is ( feeding ) all they want and ( feeding ) too much! Which is understandable.. we all have to start somewhere! My experience has been that 'most' of the ones I've hatched and raised to adults will eat until full and then walk away.. BECAUSE they are being fed the 'right' food items. Hardly a week [ it seems almost daily lately ] goes by that someone doesn't write or call asking for help with their redfoot.. and it's ALWAYS a diet or humidity issue!
The MAIN point to be made with this topic is to demonstrate { with pictures! } what happens when the HUMIDITY is too low - which Carl pointed out above.
The occasional effect that occurs with over-feeding can be fixed easily.. when changed early. Again the "right" foods are seldom over-eaten. "Most" everybody that contacts me [ that claim theirs will eat until it's all gone ] admit they are feeding the "wrong" stuff. And of course that's when I assure them that the 'right' stuff will satisfy.. where the 'wrong' stuff never does!
[ forgive me while I rant please ] Go ahead Shawn and Carl and show us pictures that back your claims and that which you agree with. Go ahead and attempt to "publish" a CARESHEET that is always correct and applies to every known senario out there. Go ahead and subject yourself to all of the "taken out of context" accusations and [ talk about ] nonsense - with seldom or ever ANYTHING to back it up. Of all of the wild-caught redfoots that I've seen in person or seen advertised on Kingsnake.. I've yet to see one with pyramiding. There was an article in Reptiles mag. [ June '02 - Carl remembers the COVER redfoot ] by Richard Cary Paull.. that shows pyramided redfoots in the wild on an almost "desert" South Carribean island.
I started this topic to show [ with chronological picture documentation ] how it is possible to raise a hatchling that is not "pyramided or obese". Nothing more.. nothing less.
Am I upset or unhappy with Carl or Shawn or anybody? How or why would I be.. it really would be stupid if I were. Who has time for unforgiveness? - not me.
Terry K
Carl is saying the same things I am! Most of the "new" redfoot keepers don't know the difference between good and bad and/or what is ( feeding ) all they want and ( feeding ) too much! Which is understandable.. we all have to start somewhere! My experience has been that 'most' of the ones I've hatched and raised to adults will eat until full and then walk away.. BECAUSE they are being fed the 'right' food items. Hardly a week [ it seems almost daily lately ] goes by that someone doesn't write or call asking for help with their redfoot.. and it's ALWAYS a diet or humidity issue!
The MAIN point to be made with this topic is to demonstrate { with pictures! } what happens when the HUMIDITY is too low - which Carl pointed out above.
The occasional effect that occurs with over-feeding can be fixed easily.. when changed early. Again the "right" foods are seldom over-eaten. "Most" everybody that contacts me [ that claim theirs will eat until it's all gone ] admit they are feeding the "wrong" stuff. And of course that's when I assure them that the 'right' stuff will satisfy.. where the 'wrong' stuff never does!
[ forgive me while I rant please ] Go ahead Shawn and Carl and show us pictures that back your claims and that which you agree with. Go ahead and attempt to "publish" a CARESHEET that is always correct and applies to every known senario out there. Go ahead and subject yourself to all of the "taken out of context" accusations and [ talk about ] nonsense - with seldom or ever ANYTHING to back it up. Of all of the wild-caught redfoots that I've seen in person or seen advertised on Kingsnake.. I've yet to see one with pyramiding. There was an article in Reptiles mag. [ June '02 - Carl remembers the COVER redfoot ] by Richard Cary Paull.. that shows pyramided redfoots in the wild on an almost "desert" South Carribean island.
I started this topic to show [ with chronological picture documentation ] how it is possible to raise a hatchling that is not "pyramided or obese". Nothing more.. nothing less.
Am I upset or unhappy with Carl or Shawn or anybody? How or why would I be.. it really would be stupid if I were. Who has time for unforgiveness? - not me.
Terry K
Redfoot NERD said:
In the past 2 months I have been feeding my Reds a better diet (not that I was feeding a horrible diet before) and there is a noticable difference in the quanity they eat. They get their "fill" with a lot less intake. Just like eating fast food vs. healthy food for us. Just an observation.
Terry, please stop with referring to me as a mentor, guru or any other sort of title. I simply answered questions you posed to me. Nothing more.
I cannot be responsible for the fact that you have not seen wild caught redfoots that have elevated scute centers---which, BTW does not mean they are pyramided. It is true that I have had the advantage of seeing thousands of imported redfoots from numerous countries since the early 70s and so I have seen quite a bit of variation in these animals. Some groups of imported redfoots (especially from Bolivia) had many animals with such shells but the growth was even and regular and quite natural. But again, that does not mean that they were 'pyramided' in the sense that there was something wrong with them.
The bit I wrote about "Aha, a victim of overfeeding" was in response to some of your comments about animals in photographs that seemed to be about as nice as you can get in captivity. How you can deduce, or speculate that they might have been overfed because one animal had a deep growth groove and another had some slightly raised scute centers is what I considered to be nonsense. Such minor shell variations will not even be noticed when they are adults. And why on earth would you conclude that they were a result of overfeeding?
As for trying to prove my statements by uploading photos (which frankly, I don't even know how to do) or by having my own website, you must be joking. Do you think I have taken the time over the years to photograph hatchlings (with closeup lenses) as they grew so that I could one day prove to people that I can raise a tortoise with a nice carapace?
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that you are completely full of it. You have raised some very nice looking tortoises. But then so have many, many others. The problem I have is that you pontificate about your methods that include some unnecessary dietary restrictions.
Lastly, insisting that others provide photos of their animals when they question you about things is rather childish.
I cannot be responsible for the fact that you have not seen wild caught redfoots that have elevated scute centers---which, BTW does not mean they are pyramided. It is true that I have had the advantage of seeing thousands of imported redfoots from numerous countries since the early 70s and so I have seen quite a bit of variation in these animals. Some groups of imported redfoots (especially from Bolivia) had many animals with such shells but the growth was even and regular and quite natural. But again, that does not mean that they were 'pyramided' in the sense that there was something wrong with them.
The bit I wrote about "Aha, a victim of overfeeding" was in response to some of your comments about animals in photographs that seemed to be about as nice as you can get in captivity. How you can deduce, or speculate that they might have been overfed because one animal had a deep growth groove and another had some slightly raised scute centers is what I considered to be nonsense. Such minor shell variations will not even be noticed when they are adults. And why on earth would you conclude that they were a result of overfeeding?
As for trying to prove my statements by uploading photos (which frankly, I don't even know how to do) or by having my own website, you must be joking. Do you think I have taken the time over the years to photograph hatchlings (with closeup lenses) as they grew so that I could one day prove to people that I can raise a tortoise with a nice carapace?
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that you are completely full of it. You have raised some very nice looking tortoises. But then so have many, many others. The problem I have is that you pontificate about your methods that include some unnecessary dietary restrictions.
Lastly, insisting that others provide photos of their animals when they question you about things is rather childish.
Could not be said any better than that. There have been far too many occasions that I have seen childish behavior, unanswered questions and belligerence towards anyone that questions his care routine. It always turns into a photograph war (which is why this thread began in the first place). I don't know what it is about your defensive attitude Terry concerning your redfoot 'regime' and why you get insulted when people ask any questions that deviate from your recommendations (which is all they are). I say insulted because that's all I can think it is due to your defensive behavior towards others who ask or discuss things deviating from your care routine.
I also think it is childish to make this into a competition basically overwriting anyone who doesn't have documented photographs. During my ownership I've emailed anyone that posted a 4-5 year old redfoot photo with great carapace growth and asked them what they fed. It's amazing what responses I get from them, some fed no catfoot and choose a more natural protein (earthworms and insects on protein day) I even had an owner tell me he fed commercial ZooMed Forest Tortoise food and also had very sucessful results seen in a photograph under their care for years. I ALWAYS jump at the chance to write those people online (even if it is someone selling a redfoot on Kijiji who has decided to part with the redfoots after years of ownership).
Before getting a Redfoot, I didn't know what to believe due to all the conflicting information online and it was weeks of research. It was because of Terry's site that I was convinced his diet would not make me end up with a deformed redfoot. I thank him and give him full credit for that. I just can't take the inflated attitude that comes with it...
Shawn
I also think it is childish to make this into a competition basically overwriting anyone who doesn't have documented photographs. During my ownership I've emailed anyone that posted a 4-5 year old redfoot photo with great carapace growth and asked them what they fed. It's amazing what responses I get from them, some fed no catfoot and choose a more natural protein (earthworms and insects on protein day) I even had an owner tell me he fed commercial ZooMed Forest Tortoise food and also had very sucessful results seen in a photograph under their care for years. I ALWAYS jump at the chance to write those people online (even if it is someone selling a redfoot on Kijiji who has decided to part with the redfoots after years of ownership).
Before getting a Redfoot, I didn't know what to believe due to all the conflicting information online and it was weeks of research. It was because of Terry's site that I was convinced his diet would not make me end up with a deformed redfoot. I thank him and give him full credit for that. I just can't take the inflated attitude that comes with it...
Shawn
Since "RESEARCH" seems to be so important.. let's compare results - fair enough???
I did research in the past.. and the 10/98 hatchlings I acquired in 12/98 ended up looking like pineapples at 3 years old. Since then I've made changes and have put together the Caresheet that you can find a link to in any of the links in my signature here.
I am totally honest with everything I've represented.. because this is not about anything but the best care for redfoot tortoises. This is not about who has the best.. or perfect.. or only caresheet - which I have never claimed! There is no ego or emotion involved.. so I respectfully ask and expect the same.
With the above in mind.. let's see results, not claims or opinions please?
Let's see 'links' to caresheets that show their results.. or let's see anyone's results of following any other or my Caresheet - from hatchling to adult or anything in between.
The above is how I started this thread. Some choose to play along.. some don't. I asked everyone to show how theirs look - regardless what "caresheet" they use.
Some have such a "pre-conceived" opinion of my attitude that they can't read what is said. Not sure why.. but let's try this again.
In the past there have been those that have had their feelings hurt because I "bottom-line" what has proven works for me and the redfoots that I hatch and raise. They took what I said as a personal attack.. whereas I was actually "attacking" the caresheet they had bought into - which produced ( let's say ) unhealthy redfoots. For example "feed them grasses and hay exclusively.. no fruit or animal protein.. keep them dry with a "basking spot" of 100 degrees"! In other words the caresheets that "paint-all-tortoises-with-the-same-brush". Well the first 5 years of raising my FIRST 3 redfoots produced pyramided freaks. As a result I have tried to put together a "caresheet" that is as simple as possible - for the unique needs of the redfoot tortoise!
So when I say "You can expect these.. when you do it like this".. means that and only that.
It has gotten old hearing others accuse me of being one way.. so I started this thread asking others to show how "their way".. or "my way" has worked for their redfoot.
If you don't want to participate you don't have to.
Carl you chose to answer my Q?'s.. as rediculous as some of them were! You didn't have to. I will always consider you my mentor.. but will only refer to you as with "years of experience" from now on.
Terry
I did research in the past.. and the 10/98 hatchlings I acquired in 12/98 ended up looking like pineapples at 3 years old. Since then I've made changes and have put together the Caresheet that you can find a link to in any of the links in my signature here.
I am totally honest with everything I've represented.. because this is not about anything but the best care for redfoot tortoises. This is not about who has the best.. or perfect.. or only caresheet - which I have never claimed! There is no ego or emotion involved.. so I respectfully ask and expect the same.
With the above in mind.. let's see results, not claims or opinions please?
Let's see 'links' to caresheets that show their results.. or let's see anyone's results of following any other or my Caresheet - from hatchling to adult or anything in between.
The above is how I started this thread. Some choose to play along.. some don't. I asked everyone to show how theirs look - regardless what "caresheet" they use.
Some have such a "pre-conceived" opinion of my attitude that they can't read what is said. Not sure why.. but let's try this again.
In the past there have been those that have had their feelings hurt because I "bottom-line" what has proven works for me and the redfoots that I hatch and raise. They took what I said as a personal attack.. whereas I was actually "attacking" the caresheet they had bought into - which produced ( let's say ) unhealthy redfoots. For example "feed them grasses and hay exclusively.. no fruit or animal protein.. keep them dry with a "basking spot" of 100 degrees"! In other words the caresheets that "paint-all-tortoises-with-the-same-brush". Well the first 5 years of raising my FIRST 3 redfoots produced pyramided freaks. As a result I have tried to put together a "caresheet" that is as simple as possible - for the unique needs of the redfoot tortoise!
So when I say "You can expect these.. when you do it like this".. means that and only that.
It has gotten old hearing others accuse me of being one way.. so I started this thread asking others to show how "their way".. or "my way" has worked for their redfoot.
If you don't want to participate you don't have to.
Carl you chose to answer my Q?'s.. as rediculous as some of them were! You didn't have to. I will always consider you my mentor.. but will only refer to you as with "years of experience" from now on.
Terry
I would also like to add that in the beginning of my ownership I asked you why it wasn't OK to let them eat greens until they walked away from they're bowl and you said "you're on your own". Don't you remember that Terry? That's what began our first argument and ultimately led to a phone conversation. And also a month ago I asked you the same question again after I also told you that I was feeding after your diet and you gave me the same answer (keep them hungry!). So now you're saying if you're feeding the right foods that it is now ok to let them eat until they walk away? This is clearly a contradiction in my mind and there is nothing you can say to back peddle out of that one, I'm sorry.
shawngt2 said:
Shawn I looked on Redfoots.com and couldn't find that [ it must have been something that didn't line-up with what I wanted on Redfoots.com so I deleted it - which was part of our "by-laws" ] As I recall you asked about feeding as much as they wanted until they walked away - leaving food un-eaten. I responded.. and you said something to the effect that you were going to continue the way you had been doing it. That's when I said "You're on your own then". In other words you weren't asking to learn.. you just wanted me to tell you it was O.K. to do what you were doing. I didn't believe it was [ for your personal situation.. age of redfoot ] the right thing to do. We were talking about a 'younger' redfoot also.
It appears that you think that that started an arguement. Shawn I don't have time or the desire to argue with anyone on anything. The system that I use creates what it does.. and anyone can choose to follow it.. or not.
The part about feeding [ the right food ] that was directed to Carl.. was about adults - not yearlings or whatever you have. So that is taken out of context.
So Shawn you can call me [ or accuse me of ] anything you want - just make sure your redfoot is cared for!
Terry K
RE: over feeding
Great post! Thanks!
I supposed you could say you have never claimed that, but of course you have ridiculed ANYONE who didnt agree with YOUR caresheet and tried to belittle them. Thats just as much saying yours is the perfect caresheet, without just coming right out and saying it.
Careful everyone, he will be hounding admins to get rid of you because you called him out on something or didnt agree with everything he said.
cdmay said:
Great post! Thanks!
Redfoot NERD said:
I supposed you could say you have never claimed that, but of course you have ridiculed ANYONE who didnt agree with YOUR caresheet and tried to belittle them. Thats just as much saying yours is the perfect caresheet, without just coming right out and saying it.
Careful everyone, he will be hounding admins to get rid of you because you called him out on something or didnt agree with everything he said.
I've attempted to communicate with all of the "accuser's".. but only one was mature enough to discuss why they felt the way that they did. And even then that didn't change their unwillingness to deal with their emotions - still accusing!
What took you so long Anja? Where's Jacqui?
Sorry that the other 1000+ 'viewers' have had to read these last few posts of theirs. How did this "soap opera" get on this thread in the first place?
There are 10 pages of happy 'new owners' that consist of over 100 in my Guestbook.. so 95+% of those that have dealt with me are glad they did - not bad %'s huh?
{ I can't believe I am even responding ( fanning the fire ) to these }
Terry K
I just looked.. WOW!!! over 2000 views now!!!
What took you so long Anja? Where's Jacqui?
Sorry that the other 1000+ 'viewers' have had to read these last few posts of theirs. How did this "soap opera" get on this thread in the first place?
There are 10 pages of happy 'new owners' that consist of over 100 in my Guestbook.. so 95+% of those that have dealt with me are glad they did - not bad %'s huh?
{ I can't believe I am even responding ( fanning the fire ) to these }
Terry K
I just looked.. WOW!!! over 2000 views now!!!
Well, on a lighter note, (?). This is Izzy, who has been raised on Terry's caresheets since she was 1 month old. (besides my Redfoot, of course)
I swear...it's the truth.
I swear...it's the truth.
Ahh well Terry I got bored of your chest thumping and tooting your own horn way back on page 1, but someone was kind enough to point out a few things in the last couple of pages for me to have a good chuckle over so here I am. Now dont go running to Josh crying that Im picking on you again and demanding he get rid of me, because I honestly could care less about you, but it is good to know I am not the only one that feels the way I do about you.
I'm glad your ways work for you and lots of other people, but they are NOT the answer for everyone in every situation. That doesnt stop you from trying to shove your ways down everyone's throats though and I personally dont agree with that. I am THRILLED to read some of CDMAY's posts in this thread and I greatly appreciate him chiming in.
Have a wonderful day all!
Now dont go running to Josh crying that Im picking on you again and demanding he get rid of me, because I honestly could care less about you, but it is good to know I am not the only one that feels the way I do about you. I'm glad your ways work for you and lots of other people, but they are NOT the answer for everyone in every situation. That doesnt stop you from trying to shove your ways down everyone's throats though and I personally dont agree with that. I am THRILLED to read some of CDMAY's posts in this thread and I greatly appreciate him chiming in.
Have a wonderful day all!
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Personal stuff aside we all share a passion for turtles and tortoises. Why should we act this way towards each other for any reason?
If you are over the age of 15 you should be aware that you will never agree with 100% of people 100% of the time. Dont take stuff so personal. Please, we should all be friends here
If you are over the age of 15 you should be aware that you will never agree with 100% of people 100% of the time. Dont take stuff so personal. Please, we should all be friends here
terryo said:Well, on a lighter note, (?). This is Izzy, who has been raised on Terry's caresheets since she was 1 month old. (besides my Redfoot, of course)
I swear...it's the truth.
The absolute BEST pics you have ever taken Terry O! Remember how close you were.. that's the 'focal length' of that camera!!!
Nice looking Izzy...
Terry K
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