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Redfoot/Yellowfoot hybrid

rande

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I saw Sam from floridaiguana.com is selling hybrids between redfoot and yellowfoot. I have searched a little bit online, some people said the hybrid will only look like one parent instead of mixture of both. However, I actually do see characteristics from both species. First,from their head scutes, I am pretty sure they are not yellowfoot. They also have yellow scutes on both their legs and head that make them looks like yellowfoots. I know some redfoots have yellow head and yellow legs too, so it probably doesnt mean anything. However, they also have alot black colors on their plastrons which is one of the characteristics of yellowfoots(I knew cherryheads have black plastrons too but I never see any yellow color cherryheads, so I assume this black color is from yellowfoot)
Let me know how you guys think about it, are they really hybrids or just some unique-colored redfoots? If they are hybrids, are they fertile? I did a little bit research about it, I found out that they both have total number of 52 chromosomes. Since they have same number of chromosomes, I guess they probably better than mules in terms of breed:.).
Here are some pics of the hybrids and their parents that Sam sent to me.
#1 Yellow Phase Bottom 4.5 inches  (1280x960).jpg #1 Yellow Phase face 4.5 inches  (1280x960).jpg #1 Yellow Phase Top 4.5 inches  (1280x960).jpg #2 Yellow Phase Bottom 4.5 inches  (1280x960).jpg #2 Yellow Phase face 4.5 inches  (1280x959).jpg #2 Yellow Phase Top 4.5 inches  (1280x960).jpg #3 Yellow Phase Bottom 4.5 inches  (1280x960).jpg #3 Yellow Phase face 4.5 inches  (1280x945).jpg #3 Yellow Phase Top 4.5 inches  (1280x960).jpg Female Redfoot Bottom.jpg Female Redfoot Face.jpg Male Yellowfoot Bottom.jpg Male Yellowfoot Face.jpg
 

Turtlepete

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Unless produced from a pair that was strictly housed in a one female/one male setting for a couple years then it would be difficult to say. A female redfoot could be house with a male yellow foot and lay eggs, leading the keeper to assume the animals produced were hybrids. However, retained eggs is always a possibility so it makes it hard to say for sure. Also, hybrids won't always necessarily look different from one parent species or the other. The young do look quite unique, however.

Determining whether or not the young will be fertile and produce in the future is hard to say. I'm not aware of any f2 hybrids.
 

rande

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Unless produced from a pair that was strictly housed in a one female/one male setting for a couple years then it would be difficult to say. A female redfoot could be house with a male yellow foot and lay eggs, leading the keeper to assume the animals produced were hybrids. However, retained eggs is always a possibility so it makes it hard to say for sure. Also, hybrids won't always necessarily look different from one parent species or the other. The young do look quite unique, however.

Determining whether or not the young will be fertile and produce in the future is hard to say. I'm not aware of any f2 hybrids.
I do know that female is able to store sperm for couple years, but I can see that the belly of the babies have black markings(the female doesnt have it) which looks exact the same as the yellowfoot. So I assume that the babies contains at least "some" genes from the yellowfoot. Does this sound reasonable?
 

Turtlepete

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I do know that female is able to store sperm for couple years, but I can see that the belly of the babies have black markings(the female doesnt have it) which looks exact the same as the yellowfoot. So I assume that the babies contains at least "some" genes from the yellowfoot. Does this sound reasonable?
It "sounds" reasonable, but I've seen plenty of young reds with similar plastron coloration to yellows. Again, they won't necessarily come out with the mixed characteristics that you might expect.
 

allegraf

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I know nothing about yellow foots. But the pictures of the adults look like three different torts, two redfoots and the last two pics look like a yellow foot.
 

rande

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I know nothing about yellow foots. But the pictures of the adults look like three different torts, two redfoots and the last two pics look like a yellow foot.
I believe the first two pics shows one redfoot.
They have the exact same marking on the face. I think this is the redfoot has red marking on part of its leg and has yellow marking on the other part. The second pic only shows its yellow part of its leg.(actually, if you look carefully,you can see some red colors on its right leg in the second pic)
 

rande

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It "sounds" reasonable, but I've seen plenty of young reds with similar plastron coloration to yellows. Again, they won't necessarily come out with the mixed characteristics that you might expect.
i thought only cherryheads have black plastron. I never seen any “yellow” redfoot has this kind of plastron before. Could you show me a pic of them?
 

cdmay

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I have to say that these juveniles do indeed appear to be hybrids to me.
Over the years I have seen countless bogus 'hybrid' red-foot X yellow-foot animals being offered for sale ---and virtually all of them were simply very orange colored C. denticulata.
But these look like they are for-sure hybrids.
In my experience, hybrid reptiles look like lesser versions of either parent and although these young tortoises are 'interesting', (a word many of us use to describe odd variants that although otherwise unappealing [see: hypo red-foots] are nevertheless of some genetic interest) I'm not sure they are worth paying a load of cash for.
 

HLogic

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IMO, the juvenile(s) do have the appearance of being hybrids - a decidedly RF carapace and very YF head morphology (scalation excluded). I'm not at all convinced these animals are of even a marginally increased value. This 'appeal' seems unique in the animal world. I can think of no other occasion where a mutt is valued more than a purebred - vanity notwithstanding (ligurs, labradoodles, cockacraps, etc.).
 

rande

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IMO, the juvenile(s) do have the appearance of being hybrids - a decidedly RF carapace and very YF head morphology (scalation excluded). I'm not at all convinced these animals are of even a marginally increased value. This 'appeal' seems unique in the animal world. I can think of no other occasion where a mutt is valued more than a purebred - vanity notwithstanding (ligurs, labradoodles, cockacraps, etc.).
i think the reason y the price is higher is rareness. If it is very easy to make hybrids,the price wont be this high. just same as ablinos and hypos
 

HLogic

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Albinos & hypos are not necessarily, and preferably IMO, not hybrids; though I know that is not the usual case in the tri-color king/milk snake world.
 

rande

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Albinos & hypos are not necessarily, and preferably IMO, not hybrids; though I know that is not the usual case in the tri-color king/milk snake world.
Hybrids sometimes make stronger new species, however, albinos and hypos are genopathy which make species weaker.
 

HLogic

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Hybrids sometimes make stronger new species, however, albinos and hypos are genopathy which make species weaker.
"Sometimes" being the key word. I wouldn't consider a mule evolutionarily "stronger". As a matter of fact, they are effectively evolutionarily dead. Any mutation or modification of genetic content may be consider genopathy. It is not necessarily a bad thing.
 

rande

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Although Mule is sterile, it is considered "stronger" in my opinion, that's y people breed them, it is called heterosis. albinos and hypos are usually result inbreeding which will cause many othet problems. Anyways, I think both hybrids and albinos are bad things in nature. Hybrids may cause degeneration in genes,and inbreeding causes diversification in genes.
 

HLogic

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Well, it looks like we will have to agree to disagree. I am well aware of the terminology - that bachelors in biology helps there...

...and this is your opportunity to rephrase your last statement to reflect the converse - the "sometimes" you are defending.
 

rande

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Well, it looks like we will have to agree to disagree. I am well aware of the terminology - that bachelors in biology helps there...

...and this is your opportunity to rephrase your last statement to reflect the converse - the "sometimes" you are defending.
Well,IMO “sometimes” outbreeding do produce “stronger” species. Since i study computer science, i may be wrong on this one. And this is not what this thread about, i am just asking if those are hybrids and, if so, are they infertile or fertile.
 

HLogic

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General externally visible morphology leans towards hybrid. Whether they are 'mules' in terms of reproductive ability can only be determined after sexual maturity.
 

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