Rep-Cal diet supplements

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Rep-Cal offers two complementary powdered supplements: a calcium + vitamin D3 powder, and a powder that consists of other vitamins and minerals. Rep-Cal states that these two had to be manufactured separately, but should be combined at home for optimal nutrition. I do use a calcium + vitamin D3 powder (whether Rep-Cal or another brand), but not the other powder. Does anybody else use both, and do you think it's necessary to do so?

 

[Benjamin]

I have used both products for the last 10 years. I do not use the calcium D3 supplement when animals are staying outdoors during the summer. I also keep cuttlebone available at all times with all of my animals.

 

[Madkins007]

A report a couple years ago found that many pet vitamins did not really contain what the labels said. The most consistent issue was less calcium than advertised, but the main point was that they are not really regulated or held to a standard.

Because of things like that, and the fact that most animals benefit from about the same ratios of minerals and vitamins, I take some advise I found somewhere and just crush one of my own multi-vitamin/mineral tablets and offer a pinch of that occasionally.

(FYI: As for me, I take a multi-vitamin/mineral tablet about twice a week, partly to help with some meds, partly to help ensure that I am getting most of my nutrients or as insurance. Most nutritionists would tell you there is little need for a daily multi-vitamin if you are eating anything close to a decent diet.)

 

[DesertGrandma]

A report a couple years ago found that many pet vitamins did not really contain what the labels said. The most consistent issue was less calcium than advertised, but the main point was that they are not really regulated or held to a standard.

Because of things like that, and the fact that most animals benefit from about the same ratios of minerals and vitamins, I take some advise I found somewhere and just crush one of my own multi-vitamin/mineral tablets and offer a pinch of that occasionally.

(FYI: As for me, I take a multi-vitamin/mineral tablet about twice a week, partly to help with some meds, partly to help ensure that I am getting most of my nutrients or as insurance. Most nutritionists would tell you there is little need for a daily multi-vitamin if you are eating anything close to a decent diet.)

Thanks. That is good info. I think I would use a kitchen grater to grate the vitamin onto the food. I have not had good success with "crushing" vitamins. Makes good sense to use what we use on ourselves.

 

[Madkins007]

I just place the tablet in a tablespoon, then place another tablespoon on top and crunch. It does not pulverize it all, but I can either just use the powder or recrush the bigger bits.

 

[GBtortoises]

I've never fed my tortoises supplemental vitamins of any kind, ever. Just a good quality varied diet. I've never had any developmental or growth issues with a tortoise whatsoever. I have also not had any health issues that I could attribute to the lack of supplemental vitamins. I have several tortoises here that have been raised from hatchlings or came here as adults, many have been here over 15 years and several well over 20 years. None have ever had supplemental vitamins.
I also do not "force feed" calcium to tortoises either by coating their food with it. Different tortoises require varying levels of calcium at different stages of development and even different seasons. I cannot speak for other species, but in the wild most Mediterranean tortoises are reported to consume soil and small stones (particulary limestone) for additional minerals and calcium as they need to, not everyday as part of a daily diet. Depending upon age and size, mine are offered calcium in the form of either powder in small shallow dishes or as cuttlebone in their enclosures for them to consume as needed. Over the years I have observed different species consuming different amounts based on their growth and time of year. Some consume large amounts, other varying amounts and different times and some never consume any. So how can it be that all tortoises generically be force fed the same amount of calcium all the time? The same would apply for multi-vitamins.
For the most part it has long been acknowledged that tortoises in captivity receive a diet far richer in nutrients than they would typically consume in the wild. The supplement overload can be seen as a contributor in the number of accelerated growth tortoises out there as well as all of the 2 & 3 year old captive borns that are double and triple the size of their wild counterparts. They don't grow that way with correct care and a reasonable diet. So if their captive diet is already far richer in nutrients than their bodies would normally be exposed to what is the point of adding more on top of that?
Rep-Cal is for the most part a reputable manufacturer, as are some of the other pet brands. But take a good logicl look at some of the things for sale for tortoises, reptiles in general and even other pets. Much of it is junk (or junk food). Why? Because the manufacturer is in the business to sell products. Can't fault them for that, it's the American way. A few of those products are beneficial, many of them are not. Despite a manufacturer producing, marketing and telling a consumer that they (the consumer) needs a certain product for their pet doesn't necessarily mean that they do.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

For the most part it has long been acknowledged that tortoises in captivity receive a diet far richer in nutrients than they would typically consume in the wild. The supplement overload can be seen as a contributor in the number of accelerated growth tortoises out there as well as all of the 2 & 3 year old captive borns that are double and triple the size of their wild counterparts. They don't grow that way with correct care and a reasonable diet. So if their captive diet is already far richer in nutrients than their bodies would normally be exposed to what is the point of adding more on top of that?

I do wonder about that. On the one hand, captive tortoises are given lots of food. On the other hand, the food they are given may not be as rich in nutrients as wild plants. Unless tortoises are kept outdoors and have access to the right vegetation growing on the right soils, they might not get enough of what they need.

Our tortoises live indoors, and although we do take them outside, most of their diet consists of a wide variety of leafy greens. Most of the plants they get are domestic cultivars that look quite different from their wild ancestors, and may not contain as many nutrients. So, although they may be getting enough energy (calories), I don't know if they're getting enough nutrients. This is the same issue people face in the obesity epidemic: a diet that is energy-rich, but nutrient-poor.

That's why I supplement my tortoises' diet with calcium, vitamin D3, and beta-carotene/vitamin A, but I wonder if I should add a multivitamin powder to the mix as well.

 

[Madkins007]

GB and Geo- I agree with both of you. Supplementation is unnecessary with a good diet (and that this applies to both humans and pets), and that I am just not sure what the diet I offer really has in it or may be short on.

If my torts had access to a well-planted outdoor pen much of the year, I would not worry about this nearly as much as I do, but sadly, the reality is that in my local grocery stores I only have a couple dozen food options. I have no real idea what the overall iron levels are, or how much magnesium they are getting, or how many of the more volatile vitamins are left in the produce after all the shipping time, etc.

Since the amount of vitamins I offer are so small, I doubt there is a risk in using them, but if they help balance the vitamin and mineral profiles, they are worth it to me.

 

[GBtortoises]

I would never dispute the fact that tortoises absolutely require vitamins and minerals, especially key elements such as Vitamin D & A, calcium, protein and a some others. What I have always disputed was the supplemental source of those key elements and the overuse of them. I view supplements as being "easy" to use, maybe too easy. Very coincidentally, I have been corresponding with a local woman who asked me to identify her Middle Eastern Greek tortoise. Me being me, I began asking her several different questions about how she was keeping her tortoise. Diet--Romaine lettuce only, because "that's all he will eat". But that's okay because (her words): "I put vitamins on his food every day". I couldn't disagree more with that statement!
Obviously, most (hopefully all) people on this site are informed enough to know that the above method is good for the long term health of a tortoise, or other animal for that matter, but my point of it is that people are easily led to believe by manufacturers and poorly informed sources (insert your worst local pet shop name here) that by coating everything with vitamins all is good.

I have no doubt that the well informed use supplemental vitamins wisely with their animals.

But I also will always feel obligated to point out to people that tortoises can be raised very sucessfully without supplements and other additions. I don't think using supplements is a question of right or wrong, just another choice. But the practice can be overdone too if someone is not well informed. I have seen some sad results. in the same respect, If it weren't for the fact that I have personally seen the long term results of not using supplements and only a good quality varied diet I probably wouldn't advocate doing that either. I don't think it's a question of right or wrong, just another choice, as long as that choice is used wisely.
Of the few different field research papers, especially on Testudo horsfieldi, most reached similar conclusion: The tortoises only consumed about a half dozen species of plants within their range, despite having others to choose from. Even more so, with some species (T. horsfieldi in particular), different plant species were consumed at different times of the season. Large volumes of a specific plant were consumed immediately out of brumation but nearly completely ignored the rest of the tortoise's summer activity period. Some researchers theorize that certain plants that were higher in protein were consumed immediately out of brumation in order to "jump start" the digestive system and rebuild lost muscle tissue. It was generally indicated that the tortoises knew which plants to consume at different times of the seasons when they had different nutrional needs. While I have no real techincal proof other than observation, I am a firm believer that when given the opportunity tortoises know what to eat and when.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Mark and GB,

Thanks for your in-depth responses. I am really getting a lot out of this thread so far.

Me being me, I began asking her several different questions about how she was keeping her tortoise. Diet--Romaine lettuce only, because "that's all he will eat". But that's okay because (her words): "I put vitamins on his food every day". I couldn't disagree more with that statement!

Well said. Eating junk food and loading up on vitamins doesn't work for us humans, and it doesn't work for tortoises, either. Part of the reason for this is that some vitamins are fat-soluble, others water-soluble. If what you're eating doesn't contain the right solvents, then it's not going to deliver nutrients efficiently to your body. Another problem, of course, is that there's more to nutrition than just vitamins and minerals. There's also energy, fiber, glycemic index, protein content, and who knows how many other factors that go into what we simply call "good nutrition." So you're absolutely right: we can't just dust lettuce with powder and call it good.

However, lately I've been a bit more concerned about my Russians' diet. As GB pointed out, in Central Asia, steppe tortoises eat plants primarily from just a few families, namely sunflowers, crucifers, plantains, poppies, and buttercups, with only a little bit of grass. Other Testudos are closely related, and have similar dietary habits. Some of the plants Testudos eat are for pure nutrition (like sunflowers), while others have a deworming effect (like buttercups).

I try to mimic this array of plants at home by offering lettuce and endive (sunflower family); arugula, collard, and mustard greens (cruciferous family); and occasionally plantago (plantain family). They sometimes eat grass, but I have yet to offer them poppies or buttercups, because they are expensive. However, the thing to notice is that domesticated crops are quite different from wild plants. Romaine lettuce does not look much like wild Lactuca, endive does not look much like Cichorium, and collard does not look much like wild Brassica. Some of these plants have been artificially selected for improved flavor, which often means that they have lost the bitter secondary metabolic compounds that deter browsing by herbivores. But does all this breeding mean that they have lost some of their nutritional value, too? I'm not a nutritionist, so I don't know, but I suspect so.

Letting your tortoises forage on their own is good, of course, but even then, if the plants are growing on calcium-poor soil, for example, then they will not have as high a calcium content in their leaves. Ditto for groceries. So, this is why I supplement with calcium. I also use vitamin D3, because my tortoises are not outdoors all day long, so I want to compensate for that. The supplement I've been using also has little granules of beta-carotene in it, which breaks down to vitamin A in the body.

My concern, however, comes because when my tortoises came out of hibernation a couple weeks ago, the female was fine (with some minor eye irritation), but the male lost a lot of weight and came out with bad hypovitaminosis A and xerophthalmia, i.e. vitamin A deficiency leading to dry, swollen eyes. He also developed a runny nose. Thanks to advice from Ascott and others, I have nursed him back to health, and am now giving both of them more beta-carotene/vitamin A, but that was sort of a close call.

I have been thinking about why this happened to the male, but not the female. I think it has to do with nutrition. Both were above the minimum Donohue Formula weight for brumation, but this equation probably overestimates condition in Russians, which have a rounder carapace. The female was heavier than the male, though, so I think she made out okay, while he started to starve and run out of vitamin A. Maybe he had a hidden underlying disease, but they both seemed fine going in. Maybe he just didn't eat enough, because the female does eat more, while the male spends a lot of time running around engaged in shenanigans. Nevertheless, I can't help but wonder if this kind of hibernation starvation can be avoided in the future by not only letting them pig out during the growing season, but also making sure that the food they do eat is more nutritious.

 

[Madkins007]

Once again, I agree with both of you. I think the real issue here is 'oversupplementation'. We Americans for some reason really get into this whole thing about 'more is better', 'superfoods', and other things that are basically cheats and short cuts. "I or my pets will be just fine on a mediocre/cheap diet as long as I use some of these superfoods I've read about and enough of this really cool vitamin I got on sale!"

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I've never fed my tortoises supplemental vitamins of any kind, ever. Just a good quality varied diet. I've never had any developmental or growth issues with a tortoise whatsoever. I have also not had any health issues that I could attribute to the lack of supplemental vitamins. I have several tortoises here that have been raised from hatchlings or came here as adults, many have been here over 15 years and several well over 20 years. None have ever had supplemental vitamins.
I also do not "force feed" calcium to tortoises either by coating their food with it. Different tortoises require varying levels of calcium at different stages of development and even different seasons. I cannot speak for other species, but in the wild most Mediterranean tortoises are reported to consume soil and small stones (particulary limestone) for additional minerals and calcium as they need to, not everyday as part of a daily diet. Depending upon age and size, mine are offered calcium in the form of either powder in small shallow dishes or as cuttlebone in their enclosures for them to consume as needed. Over the years I have observed different species consuming different amounts based on their growth and time of year. Some consume large amounts, other varying amounts and different times and some never consume any. So how can it be that all tortoises generically be force fed the same amount of calcium all the time? The same would apply for multi-vitamins.
For the most part it has long been acknowledged that tortoises in captivity receive a diet far richer in nutrients than they would typically consume in the wild. The supplement overload can be seen as a contributor in the number of accelerated growth tortoises out there as well as all of the 2 & 3 year old captive borns that are double and triple the size of their wild counterparts. They don't grow that way with correct care and a reasonable diet. So if their captive diet is already far richer in nutrients than their bodies would normally be exposed to what is the point of adding more on top of that?
Rep-Cal is for the most part a reputable manufacturer, as are some of the other pet brands. But take a good logicl look at some of the things for sale for tortoises, reptiles in general and even other pets. Much of it is junk (or junk food). Why? Because the manufacturer is in the business to sell products. Can't fault them for that, it's the American way. A few of those products are beneficial, many of them are not. Despite a manufacturer producing, marketing and telling a consumer that they (the consumer) needs a certain product for their pet doesn't necessarily mean that they do.

I am on the same page!

 

[MORTYtheTORTY]

My hatchling is munching on cuttlebone as we speak