Russian tortoise anorexia

[Ruski One]

Hello,

I have a 4 year old male Russian tortoise who is refusing to eat. He has been solidly off his food for around a month now. At first I thought it was due to him shedding however his appetite has not returned. Visually, I can't see anything wrong with him but his weight is down and he will not eat. I've tried tempting him with treats without success.

Following a visit to the vets this week he's had a full check up, x-rays and bloods which all came back normal. I was concerned he may have an obstruction in his gut as he does tend to scavenge on things he shouldn't given the opportunity. He has apparently got a little bit of poo and gas which looked normal to the vet.

He's still strong and it is extremely difficult to open his mouth for me to try force feeding him. All he's interested in is going to bed. Surely he shouldn't be trying to hibernate given his table temps...

I've started soaking him daily for 10 minutes in warm water with added reptoboost but it doesn't seem to be pepping him up. I'll avoid hibernating him this year if needs be.

Any advice on next steps would be greatly appreciated. I have put enclosure info below:

Enclosure - tortoise table with MV bulb. Light on for 14 hours a day (previously 12 hours) with a basking temp of 35-36C. Ambient temps of around 18-22C depending on weather. He has an outdoor run for hot days however hasn't been outside for a couple of weeks now.

 

[gregcalverley0327]

I would guess he knows it’s getting cooler and is possibly starting to hibernate, also I wouldn’t use the MVB a lot of people on here say they are bad for the tortoises actually.

 

[Ruski One]

Ok thank you. I will look into the MVB situation. At present I've still not managed to force feed him but I have started doing soaks with the critical care formula in it as well to see if that picks his appetite up.

 

[Suey]

Hi I’m in the uk too. I have two Russians,one Male , one female housed separate inside and out. I’ve noticed their habits change recently. My female hasn’t eaten for about 3 weeks and this week my Male isn’t eating. When I put food down they look at it but won’t eat , no matter what I tempt them with. Another strange thing my Male does is come outside when you’d think it was too cold. They are 6 and 7 and have done this behaviour for about 2 yrs.I keep putting a small amount of food out each day, until they eventually start eating again. Then last December my female who is the older one didn’t eat for 7 or 8 weeks and she was fine. I did give her regular soaks. I just think it’s a Russian tort thing.

 

[Ruski One]

Thank you for the reassurance. I will keep an eye on him and see how he goes. I will probably skip hibernation this year to be safe.

 

[Tom]

Ok thank you. I will look into the MVB situation. At present I've still not managed to force feed him but I have started doing soaks with the critical care formula in it as well to see if that picks his appetite up.

He's not eating for a reason. Stop trying to force feed him. This is very stressful on both of you and could possibly kill him if you succeed. It is almost never a good idea to force feed a tortoise. When they don't eat, there is ALWAYS a reason. Fix the reason, and they will begin eating again. In the case of the problem being oncoming winter, you can't really fix that, but you can try to fool their minds and bodies into thinking its still warm and summer-like.

Its fall. They are supposed to stop eating. They know a long cold winter is coming and they need to empty their gut.

If you don't want him to hibernate, add more light in the 5000-6500K range, and increase ambient temps. I prefer LED strips or bulbs for ambient light, ad a CHE or two set on a thermostat should help warm up the ambient temps. Also soak for 30-40 minutes and keep the water warm the entire time. Even when you do these things, they sometimes still persist in trying to prepare for hibernation and then hibernating. They know what time of year it is.

 

[Ruski One]

He's not eating for a reason. Stop trying to force feed him. This is very stressful on both of you and could possibly kill him if you succeed. It is almost never a good idea to force feed a tortoise. When they don't eat, there is ALWAYS a reason. Fix the reason, and they will begin eating again. In the case of the problem being oncoming winter, you can't really fix that, but you can try to fool their minds and bodies into thinking its still warm and summer-like.

Its fall. They are supposed to stop eating. They know a long cold winter is coming and they need to empty their gut.

If you don't want him to hibernate, add more light in the 5000-6500K range, and increase ambient temps. I prefer LED strips or bulbs for ambient light, ad a CHE or two set on a thermostat should help warm up the ambient temps. Also soak for 30-40 minutes and keep the water warm the entire time. Even when you do these things, they sometimes still persist in trying to prepare for hibernation and then hibernating. They know what time of year it is.

Thank you for the advice. I haven't tried to force feed since my initial attempt following instruction from the vet however I have been doing the warm soaks.

After the replies to my initial post I am not so worried as I was previously. I think the vet spooked me rather than reassure me.

 

[Maggie3fan]

Increase his quality and length of lighting and soak him in strained carrots, Gerber type, and he will get some Vitamin A and a little nutrients while you try to straighten out his care. Try to set a routine that he can get used to and do the same thing the same way everyday. Offer him food and leave it,don't stay and watch him.

 

[Tom]

Thank you for the advice. I haven't tried to force feed since my initial attempt following instruction from the vet however I have been doing the warm soaks.

After the replies to my initial post I am not so worried as I was previously. I think the vet spooked me rather than reassure me.

Vets usually know nothing about tortoise care and often give terrible harmful advice. Your vet had/has no clue what is going on with your tortoise, but advised you to do something that would literally kill it if you were able to do it. You should let the vet know this, so they don't keep recommending harmful practices. They may ignore you, but you will have at least tried.

There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school. A person has to come here to TFO to learn proper tortoise care, and then practice it profusely in the real world to get basic competence, and eventually master the concepts.

 

[Ruski One]

Hi, just a quick update. I'm not sure if it was the soaks or that my tortoise deciding but he's been eating properly again for the last few days.

Thanks all for the advice. I will bear this in mind for the future before seeking reassurance from a vet.

 

[Suey]

Hi glad to hear that both mine have eaten better this week. Charlie just wants to keep coming out and trying to dig. He’s definitely in hibernation mode ? inlet him out for a hour or so just to satisfy him then I put him back in the warmth of his lamp. Weather in uk not very good at the moment dull with drizzle, not that cold though.

 

[Bradbo]

Vets usually know nothing about tortoise care and often give terrible harmful advice. Your vet had/has no clue what is going on with your tortoise, but advised you to do something that would literally kill it if you were able to do it. You should let the vet know this, so they don't keep recommending harmful practices. They may ignore you, but you will have at least tried.

There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school. A person has to come here to TFO to learn proper tortoise care, and then practice it profusely in the real world to get basic competence, and eventually master the concepts.

This is not entirely accurate. Most vets are offered courses on exotics and tortoises are very common pets. There are also absolutely illnesses in which tube feeding a tortoise are indicated. Make sure you ask your vet / find one who is comfortable with the tortoise. Most times they are just as frustrated as you are that you came to them without consulting etc.

 

[Tom]

This is not entirely accurate. Most vets are offered courses on exotics and tortoises are very common pets. There are also absolutely illnesses in which tube feeding a tortoise are indicated. Make sure you ask your vet / find one who is comfortable with the tortoise. Most times they are just as frustrated as you are that you came to them without consulting etc.

My opinion is based upon decades of dealing with "exotic" vets and all manner of exotic animals. Exotic animals are both my hobby and my profession and have been since the 80s, so I have a lot of interaction with a lot of vets over a lot of years to drawn this opinion from. I think it IS accurate. An optional "course" on exotics over the coarse of 12 years of vet school does not a tortoise expert make. Even in theory, you should be able to see how inadequate that is. I can tell you for certain that in actual practice, what ever was mentioned about tortoise care was inconsequential and ineffective, as they commonly misdiagnose and mistreat tortoises that come in to their clinics. This all certainly applies to most vets, but I personally know several exceptions to this general rule, so not all vets are inept with tortoises and their care and treatment.

The OP's vet did not diagnose any of those illnesses in which tube feeding might be indicated, and this tortoise was likely refusing food for a good reason given the time of year and the climate of the OP. Having inexperienced pet owners force feed animals often leads to aspiration and death. Force feeding an animal that is about to go into brumation is also a likely death sentence. The OP said all the labs came up clean, so there was no reason to be force feeding a temperate tortoise species going in to fall. That was terrible advice, made worse by telling the owner to force feed the animal themselves.

Further, we are not talking about tube feeding in this thread at all. Surgically inserting a feeding tube into the stomach is an entirely different matter than a novice keeper attempting to force feed a pet tortoise orally with a syringe. There is no indication given that either is necessary or beneficial in this thread.

 

[Bradbo]

My opinion is based upon decades of dealing with "exotic" vets and all manner of exotic animals. Exotic animals are both my hobby and my profession and have been since the 80s, so I have a lot of interaction with a lot of vets over a lot of years to drawn this opinion from. I think it IS accurate. An optional "course" on exotics over the coarse of 12 years of vet school does not a tortoise expert make. Even in theory, you should be able to see how inadequate that is. I can tell you for certain that in actual practice, what ever was mentioned about tortoise care was inconsequential and ineffective, as they commonly misdiagnose and mistreat tortoises that come in to their clinics. This all certainly applies to most vets, but I personally know several exceptions to this general rule, so not all vets are inept with tortoises and their care and treatment.

The OP's vet did not diagnose any of those illnesses in which tube feeding might be indicated, and this tortoise was likely refusing food for a good reason given the time of year and the climate of the OP. Having inexperienced pet owners force feed animals often leads to aspiration and death. Force feeding an animal that is about to go into brumation is also a likely death sentence. The OP said all the labs came up clean, so there was no reason to be force feeding a temperate tortoise species going in to fall. That was terrible advice, made worse by telling the owner to force feed the animal themselves.

Further, we are not talking about tube feeding in this thread at all. Surgically inserting a feeding tube into the stomach is an entirely different matter than a novice keeper attempting to force feed a pet tortoise orally with a syringe. There is no indication given that either is necessary or beneficial in this thread.

as a veterinarian (it’s 4 year degree in the US) the animals I see locally are mostly from big box pet stores and they routinely have parasites, oral fungal disease, impactions, hepatic disease etc. While most vets do not specialize in exotics many are capable. I see plenty of animals suffering from poor husbandry and I applaud boards like this that help owners with these issues. Certainly do not attempt to tube feed an animal without a proper indication and veterinary direction- that goes without saying. If you experience a vet giving bad / harmful or negligent advice there are proper channels to report this- please do so that animals are not harmed.

 

[mark1]

actually Tom , i believe you'll have a problem finding a good vet school that does not have an exotic animal PROGRAM???? these schools are affiliated with zoo's and aquariums world wide , and they also have their own clinics ???? most all published scientific findings are written by folks who teach , funded by the universities they teach at .....

 

[SinLA]

So, I don't know anything about the minutia of the programs, but I do know there tend to be three broad buckets (and correct me if I'm wrong): 1) Dogs/Cats, 2) Large Animal (usually farm/ranch related), 3) Exotics (could be pets, could be zoos or nature reserves, etc).

At least from what I've been told by vets I've worked with and friends who are vets, If you pick exotics, you get trained in Exotics as a whole, and then get more detailed on whatever you personally end up hands-on working with (ie: zoos vs nature reserves vs whatever). So if you take exotics, you won't *necessarily* get a whole lot in tortoises specifically. Maybe some classes on reptiles, but truly an entire class on all things tortoise? not really. So then if you go into practice where you end up with (or choose to have) tortoises as a large part of your practice - you would indeed learn a lot. But can you truly say "if you went to vet school, you learned a lot about tortoises (or fill in blank exotic)" that doesn't seem like the case. It seems like it really depends on the person and the opportunities they have had or chosen.

Does that seem wrong?

 

[Bradbo]

So, I don't know anything about the minutia of the programs, but I do know there tend to be three broad buckets (and correct me if I'm wrong): 1) Dogs/Cats, 2) Large Animal (usually farm/ranch related), 3) Exotics (could be pets, could be zoos or nature reserves, etc).

At least from what I've been told by vets I've worked with and friends who are vets, If you pick exotics, you get trained in Exotics as a whole, and then get more detailed on whatever you personally end up hands-on working with (ie: zoos vs nature reserves vs whatever). So if you take exotics, you won't *necessarily* get a whole lot in tortoises specifically. Maybe some classes on reptiles, but truly an entire class on all things tortoise? not really. So then if you go into practice where you end up with (or choose to have) tortoises as a large part of your practice - you would indeed learn a lot. But can you truly say "if you went to vet school, you learned a lot about tortoises (or fill in blank exotic)" that doesn't seem like the case. It seems like it really depends on the person and the opportunities they have had or chosen.

Does that seem wrong?

Exactly correct. We had 1.5 years of clinical medicine. You cannot learn much. There are three main tracks- small, large (often divided into farm / food animal) and exotic zoo in most curriculums. A few schools have nice poultry programs. Regardless of amount of exposure- when you pass the board you are indeed a tortoise vet (and whatever animal you chose to treat) and there is no limit on what you can practice. Tom is correct that having a license does not make you a specialist- but it should be respected.