Sadly True. Do You Agree/Disagree

[TammyJ]

Some animals have lived in the wild for ages.

For sure! We humans did too, and we see the changes we have caused, and some of us are trying to fix it or bring it back to what it was. But it was never Paradise.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

For sure! We humans did too, and we see the changes we have caused, and some of us are trying to fix it or bring it back to what it was. But it was never Paradise.

As a human. I can say that I DO NOT want to be released back into the wild.

 

[TammyJ]

As a human. I can say that I DO NOT want to be released back into the wild.

Totally, dude!

 

[Tom]

Now I'm with that!

But be careful. Very careful. Some people would consider YOU a poacher because you have tortoises, that should be free and in the wild, in your care. YOU are the evil one in their eyes. They see you as no different than the man who shoots a rhino, cuts its horn off and leaves the dead body to rot. YOU are responsible, either directly or indirectly, for those animals being kidnapped from the wild and sold into slavery for nothing more than human entertainment. Their current imprisonment by you is a living hell that you force on them daily. They think that YOU are a villain. They think that YOU are a "poacher". And someone like me that sells cute little CB babies to spread joy and happiness around the country is a "wildlife trafficker".

There is nothing wrong with "rescuing" a sustainable number of animals from the wild and giving them safe loving homes. There is definitely something wrong with stripping an area of an entire species, and wrecking the natural world.

 

[wellington]

But be careful. Very careful. Some people would consider YOU a poacher because you have tortoises, that should be free and in the wild, in your care. YOU are the evil one in their eyes. They see you as no different than the man who shoots a rhino, cuts its horn off and leaves the dead body to rot. YOU are responsible, either directly or indirectly, for those animals being kidnapped from the wild and sold into slavery for nothing more than human entertainment. Their current imprisonment by you is a living hell that you force on them daily. They think that YOU are a villain. They think that YOU are a "poacher". And someone like me that sells cute little CB babies to spread joy and happiness around the country is a "wildlife trafficker".

There is nothing wrong with "rescuing" a sustainable number of animals from the wild and giving them safe loving homes. There is definitely something wrong with stripping an area of an entire species, and wrecking the natural world.

If I were living in their native land yes. I did not bring them here. I stole nothing from the wild. I took in a couple tortoises that were, brought or bred into this country, now needing a home. As much as I love my tortoises, and am happy to have them, I would still be happy if I never knew you could buy them in this country, because they had never been brought to this country to begin with, but left in their native homes.
Now, I am for humans helping to save an endangered species, we are the reason they are endangered. However, along with that, I believe they should be able to be set free back to their native lands. I'm not for only saving them to be in zoos or owned by individuals, but also set free.

 

[wellington]

As a human. I can say that I DO NOT want to be released back into the wild.

Actually humans get the choice.

 

[TammyJ]

I wonder how long, how many years or decades or centuries and generations of captivity (I am trying not to use that word!) it would take for, say, a tortoise to adapt so thoroughly to its environment with humans, that it would lose its ability to survive in "the wild" of it's original habitat. Maybe just a few generations? Then it would be cruel to release it back there even if the area was unchanged. Also irresponsible because others of its kind that still live free there may catch some disease it carries.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Actually humans get the choice.

Our ancestors survived.
But they died of preventable diseases and often didn't age very well

 

[Gillian M]

As a human. I can say that I DO NOT want to be released back into the wild.

Not that I do.

 

[Tom]

Our ancestors survived.
But they died of preventable diseases and often didn't age very well

As recently as 1900, the average human life expectancy was 47.3 years. Most of the people in this discussion would be dead just 100 years ago...

 

[Maggie3fan]

In Oregon we have Western Painted turtle and Western pond turtle. They are illegal to own in the PNW. I have spent many hours walking in the forest between Corvallis and The Coast and have never seen either turtle, but go into a new neighbors home in town and he had an outside pond set up containing both. So I started paying attention and again I've seen both turtles in captivity than in the "wild". I am surrounded by National Forest, the Coast Range, the Willamette river and Mary's River, ad infinitum...a lot of actual 'wild' stuff but no turtle or tortoises. Would I take an animal out of the wild and put him in my living room? In a heartbeat, and never look back
and Tom...I tried very hard as an adult to make a concentrated effort not to get old. But here I am...78 years old this May. SURPRISE!!! oh hell

 

[Maggie3fan]

Oh and released aggressive RES are totally taking over the habitats of both turtles pushing them more toward extinction...

 

[Yvonne G]

I wonder how long, how many years or decades or centuries and generations of captivity (I am trying not to use that word!) it would take for, say, a tortoise to adapt so thoroughly to its environment with humans, that it would lose its ability to survive in "the wild" of it's original habitat. Maybe just a few generations? Then it would be cruel to release it back there even if the area was unchanged. Also irresponsible because others of its kind that still live free there may catch some disease it carries.

It doesn't take years, decades or generations. I have personal first hand experience with that. When I first started my turtle rescue I would put the rescued long time captive box turtles out in the box turtle yard and was sad to see so many of them die. It's a shame those box turtles had to give up their life to teach me that rescued long time captive turtles had to be re-acclimated to living outside and foraging on their own.

 

[Gillian M]

If I were living in their native land yes. I did not bring them here. I stole nothing from the wild. I took in a couple tortoises that were, brought or bred into this country, now needing a home. As much as I love my tortoises, and am happy to have them, I would still be happy if I never knew you could buy them in this country, because they had never been brought to this country to begin with, but left in their native homes.
Now, I am for humans helping to save an endangered species, we are the reason they are endangered. However, along with that, I believe they should be able to be set free back to their native lands. I'm not for only saving them to be in zoos or owned by individuals, but also set free.

Today it was nice and sunny. Temperature reached 29 degrees C (84.2 degrees F), so I decided to take my tort for a "walk" on the sun. We both enjoyed it. I sat down and watched him "running" around happily, for about two hours, till we got surrounded by children. They wanted to pick him up, which I would not allow.
When we returned home, I give him a second soak after which he ate and fell asleep.

 

[Yvonne G]

View attachment 357231

Today it was nice and sunny. Temperature reached 29 degrees C (84.2 degrees F), so I decided to take my tort for a "walk" on the sun. We both enjoyed it. I sat down and watched him "running" around happily, for about two hours, till we got surrounded by children. They wanted to pick him up, which I would not allow.
When we returned home, I give him a second soak after which he ate and fell asleep.

Wow, Gillian, I don't remember ever seeing a picture of Ollie before. He's a beauty!!

 

[Tom]

In Oregon we have Western Painted turtle and Western pond turtle. They are illegal to own in the PNW. I have spent many hours walking in the forest between Corvallis and The Coast and have never seen either turtle, but go into a new neighbors home in town and he had an outside pond set up containing both. So I started paying attention and again I've seen both turtles in captivity than in the "wild". I am surrounded by National Forest, the Coast Range, the Willamette river and Mary's River, ad infinitum...a lot of actual 'wild' stuff but no turtle or tortoises. Would I take an animal out of the wild and put him in my living room? In a heartbeat, and never look back
and Tom...I tried very hard as an adult to make a concentrated effort not to get old. But here I am...78 years old this May. SURPRISE!!! oh hell

Well you are doing very well Maggie. The current worldwide life expectancy is 72.78 years. You've beat the system!

 

[Cathie G]

Good topic Gillian. This is a good one to discuss.

First and foremost, this is a bunch of anthropomorphism. Anyone who doesn't know what that word means should take a moment to look it up before reading further. Emotional non-sense. I can agree with the sentiment, which I see as "leave the wildlife alone and don't hurt them". I can get behind that idea 100%, but animals don't understand the human concept of "free".

Going further, I would like to introduce another concept to think about to the discussion. In todays' society, there seems to be this romantic notion of peace and harmony in the wild. Animals living side by side in cooperation and love. Like the Lion King. Or Snow White when she was in the forest. This Disney-fication of what living wild is really like does not help anyone and anything. Its ridiculous. Life in the wild is cruel, relentless, and completely unforgiving. It is literally kill or be killed. Eat or be eaten. Predators, drought, flood, starvation, disease, co-competitors of your own species attacking you, etc... It is really rough out there in the wild. Using our turtles and tortoises as an example, less than 1% of the babies that hatch annually reach adulthood and go on to reproduce. They were all living free, and every year more than 99% of them get eating or die in some horrible painful way.

Now some would say that is okay. That is part of nature. Those little babies all had to die to maintain the balance of nature. Predators and detrivores have to eat, and allowing all this to happen keeps everything in "balance". I would agree with that idea, except that human interference alters it drastically. For one example: I have to work diligently at my ranch to keep rodent pest populations down. Many of my neighbors kill any snake they see. I can understand fear of the venomous rattlesnakes. Those are highly dangerous to kids and pets, and they absolutely will bite in certain circumstances. But the morons like to proclaim: "The only good snake is a dead snake!" While I realize the futility of the exercise, I still spend my time trying to explain to these idiots that the non-venous, harmless, easy-to-recognize gopher and king snakes that they are killing, like to eat the rattlesnakes that they are so worried about, and they also keep the rodent populations that they complain about down. Many of these same neighbors, also use poison to control the rodent problem that they have created by killing the predators of the rodents. Then the poisoned rodents get eaten by other predators like owls, hawks, and coyotes, and all the predators of these rodent species die off in a given area. Guess what happens to the rodent population with no predators keeping their numbers down... Point being: Humans interfere with this "natural balance" every where they tread.

Here is another example that I have numbers for. They teach us this during our falconry apprenticeships. Fish and Wildlife have studied this extensively and have the numbers. As a falconry apprentice, you must trap a wild passage red tail hawk, or a kestrel. Passage means it was hatched earlier in the year you are trapping it, so it is a juvenile. We are not allowed to trap breeding age adults. Sounds horrible right? I kept flying red tails after my apprenticeship was over. Every year I would go out and snatch a poor unsuspecting bird out of its rightful territory and imprison it against its will. I did this 5 times. Oh the horror!!! Get ready for some reality now. In the wild, without human interference, 75% of the babies that hatch annually do not survive until October 1st. They hatch in the spring time, mid April in my area, and three quarters of those babies are dead by October. Of the remaining 25%, 80% of those don't survive their first winter. If my math is correct, that is 5 out of 100 that live to see their first birthday, and those five are often barely clinging to life by a tentative thread. Feather mites have decimated their plumage and reduced their capacity to fly and maneuver. Internal parasites rob them of much needed nutrition. The weather, predators, and human activities all take a terrible toll. Many are fighting diseases. I see this first hand out in the field every year. I see this year's juveniles flying around doing their thing in some of my hunting fields, and then one day, I see their dead body, or what remains of it. Happens several times a year. But that dead bird was living "free and in the wild". Now here is the point of the sad story: 98% of the juvenile redtails that are captured by falconers and used for a season or two of falconry, survive after being released back to the wild in the same area where they were trapped. Now opinions will vary, but did I harm those birds? Did I do them a terrible disservice by trapping them and teaching them to fly back to me for free, easy, nutritious food? Is it bad that I eradicated their parasites, taught them to hunt well, gave them fresh clean water, shelter from the elements, and protected them from their predators? Are/were those birds worse off because I didn't leave them alone so they could be free? If I hadn't trapped them, they would have had a 95% chance of dying a slow, sometimes painful death. Instead I keep them well fed, watered, got them medical treatments for their diseases and parasites, kept them for a season or two, and then released them right in the same spots where I trapped them. There first few days of "imprisonment" were admittedly scary and stressful for them, but by day three or four, they are no longer scared and happily taking food from the formerly big scary hairless ape. By day 21, they are flying free again back in the wild, and coming back to the falconer by choice. They learn that food and hunting opportunities are plentiful when they cooperate with us, and they quickly learn that their predators and territorial competitors won't come anywhere near them when their human is present. All in all, I say they get a pretty good deal, and begin trapped and "exploited" helps both the individual and the species.

Here is my measure of someone's turtle or tortoise housing: If I died and came back as a chelonian, would I want to live there instead of the wild? Hell yes, I would! I would much rather be someone's cherished, well cared for pet, than eaten alive as a single meal for a raccoon or other predator in the wild. If I were a wild redtail hawk, and somehow still had the capacity to know what I know now, I would fly directly down and get into the first falconry trap I could find.

When I was in Georgia and kept finding wild box turtles in the road, I would stop and move them out of the road into a safe area in the direction that I saw them already traveling. That was what I felt was the best thing to do. However, I have no problem with someone who finds a baby and wants to shelter, heat, feed, care for, protect and cherish it. And like any reasonable decent person, I have nothing but disdain and disgust for any person who neglects captives or abuses wild or captive animals in any way.

Yes. Amen.🤗

 

[Cathie G]

It would be so nice if I could buy into the born free concept. Paradise right. But I just can't. Most of the animals I've read and learned about live longer in captivity. In a perfect world they would have habitat, food at the perfect time, and water. They just don't have that and really never have. So... help the wild but if you find one that needs help just help.😊

 

[Tom]

It would be so nice if I could buy into the born free concept. Paradise right. But I just can't. Most of the animals I've read and learned about live longer in captivity. In a perfect world they would have habitat, food at the perfect time, and water. They just don't have that and really never have. So... help the wild but if you find one that needs help just help.😊

In general, animals live two to three times longer in captivity.