Shell bashing

[Mo & Bolt]

I have been gifted to elderly boys, 50 yrs and 30 yrs named them Mo and Bolt both males , they have lived together for 30 yrs , but I have been watching some worrying behaviour.Mo chases and bashes then mates bolt 4-5 a day. He really bashes his shell so hard . It knocks Bolt flying .
Bolt hasn't been eating, and has been climbing 2 foot to get out of enclosure. He is chased all day long by Mo . But on questioning the previous owner , l was told this has been going on for 30 yrs. Help ?? What do I do.

 

[TechnoCheese]

Welcome to the forum!
Tortoises should never be kept in pairs, and this is a good example of why.

Tortoises are very territorial, and solitary animals. They do not have the ability to make friends, so the only thing keeping them in pairs will ever bring is stress.

They need to be separated permanently.

 

[Mo & Bolt]

Welcome to the forum!
Tortoises should never be kept in pairs, and this is a good example of why.

Tortoises are very territorial, and solitary animals. They do not have the ability to make friends, so the only thing keeping them in pairs will ever bring is stress.

They need to be separated permanently.

Yes I am thinking this after I saw poor bolt scrabbling up a wall. I separated the pen , but Mo the predictor is still pushing at the fence to get in . I am amazed to see him rise up on his nails and launch a Hugh bash so hard , and keep it up for ages then bite poor bolts feet. I will build a separate pen well way from the other one .

 

[TechnoCheese]

Yes I am thinking this after I saw poor bolt scrabbling up a wall. I separated the pen , but Mo the predictor is still pushing at the fence to get in . I am amazed to see him rise up on his nails and launch a Hugh bash so hard , and keep it up for ages then bite poor bolts feet. I will build a separate pen well way from the other one .

It’s really sad that the previous owners never separated them after 30 years of that . It’s a good thing they’re with you now!

 

[Mo & Bolt]

It’s really sad that the previous owners never separated them after 30 years of that . It’s a good thing they’re with you now!

Bolt has dents round his shell and I am thinking is this from a life time of battering. ?? And he has a hole drilled through the edge of his shell. But he has survived 30 yrs and makes me think how and he has obviously been eating . Otherwise he would be dead . ?? Well they are going to be separated now. And then it's hibernation in uk come end October .

 

[TechnoCheese]

Bolt has dents round his shell and I am thinking is this from a life time of battering. ?? And he has a hole drilled through the edge of his shell. But he has survived 30 yrs and makes me think how and he has obviously been eating . Otherwise he would be dead . ?? Well they are going to be separated now. And then it's hibernation in uk come end October .

Tortoises can survive a lot, and this is pretty good proof of that. Definitely glad you have the, now.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Wow...so many years of being bullied about - sad and cruel really to both. The hole was probably made by some previous owner to tie a leash/rope to the tort to control it, like one would a dog (sad again).

Good that you have them AND can create two separate pens.

 

[TriciaStringer]

I am so glad they were given to you. Poor Bolt! Please update us on the new enclosures. Bolt has been waiting for this for thirty years, really they both have.

 

[wellington]

Bolt has dents round his shell and I am thinking is this from a life time of battering. ?? And he has a hole drilled through the edge of his shell. But he has survived 30 yrs and makes me think how and he has obviously been eating . Otherwise he would be dead . ?? Well they are going to be separated now. And then it's hibernation in uk come end October .

You really should keep them up for the first winter of owning them. Just to be sure the move and new environment hasn't taken a toll on them and possibly make them sick. That also gives you more time to get too know them and how they act, eat, etc. Thrn next winter you will know from your own care they are healthy enough to hibernate.

 

[LaLaP]

So glad Bolt won't have to endure that kind of life anymore. Well done recognizing the problem and addressing it. You're Bolt's hero!

 

[RosemaryDW]

Welcome to the forum! Bolt has many years left to live; I’m glad to see they will be safer and healthier ones.

 

[TammyJ]

Wow! Aren't they the lucky ones to finally be able to enjoy their individual lives, especially Bolt. Good for you! Send pics and let us know your progress!

 

[Diamond]

So glad they found a better home. Now Bolt will have a peaceful life. Lucky him.

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm so glad you've separated them. Welcome!

 

[JoesMum]

hello, I am also in Kent uk, Gillingham .

H! I chose to answer your message to me in your thread because links never seem to work properly in messages and I need to post a few!

I am in Tonbridge. I worked in Chatham for 10 years so am pretty familiar with the Medway towns

I have adopted two Greek spurred 50 & 30 yrs old, always lived in a garden together and apparently always bashed shells. I got them start of Aug when it was very hot, put them in their new enclosure which was is same sun position and night house in same direction. The aggression from little one 6 "" to bigger one 8. " became obsessive shell bashing, mating, biting.

They may have lived in peace previously, but I suspect the change of home has led to both trying to be the dominant tort and establish ownership of the new territory. These two probably won't settle down and each will need a very large separate enclosure. Joe had the run of our entire garden. These old Greeks do need lots of space.

You should take a look at my thread about keeping a Greek outdoors successfully in the UK.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/outdoor-accommodation-in-a-colder-uk-climate.140866/

I separated them, but neither have picked up eating. They have both lost about 35 grams in 8wks.

Put this in scale with their total weight. Losing 35g for a baby is drastic. For an 8" Greek it is nothing. A poop will weigh more than that.

You need to measure each exactly. First the straight carapace length (SCL) in centimetres. Here's how to do it:
http://www.tlady.clara.net/measure.htm

Then get an accurate weight for each in grammes.

Finally, go to The Jackson Ratio calculator to find out whether either or both are OK to hibernate. It's here:
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.org.uk/site/171.asp

And now with the cold nights starting they are only coming out at midday for 3 hrs and just laying still in the sun.

Please see my thread earlier as I cover this in detail.

While it is very warm by day here (Kent has been sunny with say time highs around 20C), the nights have been very cool (Lows of 3C on a few nights recently)

If your torts are outside at night now, they are getting too cold to be able to warm up successfully in the day. The easiest way to fix this is to bring your torts in at night. Pop each in a cardboard box (separately) and leave the box somewhere cool and dark for the night... nowhere near your central heating!

In the mornings, they either need heat lamps or a sheltered sunny patch to bask and get going. I always soak in warm water first thing in the morning too which also helps with giving a tort a good start.

I put them both in some warm water and saw them drink a little and pass the milky fluid, which was as it should be ( according to Utube ) .

As with any tort that isn't properly eating and/or active a daily 20 minute soak is a must.

The stuff is called urate and is how your tort rids itself of excess dietary proteins. It is perfectly normal, but if it becomes gritty then that is a sign of dehydration.

Will it be ok to let them go into their hibernation. I have the polyestyrene boxes, with inner cardboard boxes and shredded paper packing , as seen on a video of a tortoise breeder. To put them in when they are shut down . Just worried that it will be to long since they last ate. They look well clear eyes , bit dry, think that may be age. Any advise please to help them, many thanks

The Jackson Ratio I mentioned above is the way to find out if a Greek is a healthy weight. For successful hibernation, temperatures must be steadily be below 10C and above freezing - ideally steady around 5C.

Daytime temperatures where you and I live are far too warm for a tort to be box hibernated at the moment. Having looked at Accuweather for Gillingham that isn't likely to happen before the end of October.

So your choices are to fridge hibernate or to follow my thread above to keep your torts active until the weather changes.

There is an outstanding vet in Barming (right next to Maidstone hospital) who keeps torts and cared for Joe. He is Mark Rowland at Trinity Vet Centre. They offer pre-hibernation checks if you're at all worried.
http://trinityvetcentre.com

 

[Mo & Bolt]

Thank you so much for your comprehensive reply, I would like like to say how sad it was to read about the loss of your tortoise. I am going to read through all the information you suggested. This is all new to me , and I am on a sharp learning curve , but want to keep these old boys going so will try and get this Wright . Gill
PS they have their own area of the pen but have the garden to have a roam , but due to be fenced round so I don't have to sit their supervising them all day lol

 

[JoesMum]

Thank you Linda ,

After having a read I found out my boys are too underweight Jackson score 17 .

A score of 0.17 is a healthy weight. Have you done the calculations correctly? Tell me the weight and SCL of each and I will do it.

I have brought them indoors to sleep in a hay box in a dark warm room . I went and brought an old bookshelf, laid it on its side so they can spend their mornings in the warm room and warm bath. To try and get them to eat. They have been separated by a middle shelf . Shall I get a uv lamp . I am not going to let them hibernate as I am afraid they my die. Thanks Gill .

If they’re going outside each day then there is no need for a UVB lamp.

They will each need a basking lamp. My thread shows how I rigged it up with a lamp stand and a dark coloured paver, which I bought from Homebase, underneath. The paver warms up which Joe loved.

Let’s get the Jackson calculation right and then go from there

 

[Mo & Bolt]

View attachment 253022 View attachment 253021 Thank you so much for your comprehensive reply, I would like like to say how sad it was to read about the loss of your tortoise. I am going to read through all the information you suggested. This is all new to me , and I am on a sharp learning curve , but want to keep these old boys going so will try and get this Wright . Gill
PS they have their own area of the pen but have the garden to have a roam , but due to be fenced round so I don't have to sit their supervising them all day lol

A score of 0.17 is a healthy weight. Have you done the calculations correctly? Tell me the weight and SCL of each and I will do it.



If they’re going outside each day then there is no need for a UVB lamp.

They will each need a basking lamp. My thread shows how I rigged it up with a lamp stand and a dark coloured paver, which I bought from Homebase, underneath. The paver warms up which Joe loved.

Let’s get the Jackson calculation right and then go from there

sorry , don't know what I have done. Here are their measurements
MO : Aug 21 9031 g Oct 1st 8580 g lenght 17 cm
BOLT : Aug 1093. g. Oct. 1043. g. Lenght 18 cm
Yes will get the lamp and slate .
Thanks so much for your help

 

[JoesMum]

Mo’s weight isn’t correct. He doesn’t weigh 8kg!

Bolt has a Jackson Ratio of 0.1788 a bit light, but the calculator says a male this weight could be perfectly healthy. He is only 60g underweight