Shell rot question....

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-ryan-

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I know, I know, shell rot has been addressed 1000 times, but I have a question regarding duration.

My red foot has a case of shell rot. It's just some white/pale spots between the scutes of the top of his carapace. He's an adult male about 10" scl, and I am pretty sure that I can pinpoint the reason why he has it. I used to keep him on dirt until fairly recently (switched to cypress a couple months ago, which I much prefer!). There were quite a few times in his recent past where I found him laying upside down in a mud puddle after spilling his water into the dirt, so I was thinking that these episodes might have had something to do with it. Anyway, I fixed the problem over the past few months by first switching to cypress and then building a new, larger enclosure so he does not feel the need to be destructive and/or flip over trying to climb out. However, in November I noticed that he did get shell rot, and by the time I noticed it there was one patch that was pretty severe, but the rest where not too bad.

So that brings us up to today, which is almost two months into his treatment, and I have only noticed significant improvement in the most severe spots. The first two days I cleaned it with betadine, then I started cleaning it with nolvasan (just rubbing it in to the affected spots with a cue tip) and some clotrimazole (anti-fungal) cream. I do this twice a day, but I recently stopped using the cream because I was thinking that maybe it was actually creating a barrier so the nolvasan wasn't getting to the affected areas to clean them out.

So there has been some improvement, but only minor improvement, and two months seems like a long time for only minor improvement. I was wondering if anyone here has any suggestions? Like I said, it's the most severe patches that are actually showing steady improvement, but the smaller patches seem somewhat undisturbed by the treatment (perhaps because they are under the surface of the scutes?).

Just looking for some advice. Otherwise the red foot is very healthy. He is always up doing something, and eats well. I am not that good with red foots, I kind of specialize in russians :) So I figured someone else out there would be much more knowledgeable on the subject than I.

Thanks in advance!
 

egyptiandan

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Pictures are a must :D Before and after would be the best, but some from now will be fine.
If the shell rot was just fungal it should heal fairly quickly. If though it was bacterial, it can take a year to heal.

Danny
 
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Maggie Cummings

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I used to treat a lot of shell rot when I was helping at my sisters rescue and we dry docked them. So in my opinion if you are keeping him in the same humid atmosphere the shell rot will not clear up. He didn't get rot from being on his back in water a few times he has it because he lives in high humidity. I would keep him dry for a while and see if it makes a difference. You are doing good using the Nolvasan, but I think he needs to be kept dry too.
I don't keep redfoots so I am just relating my experience from working at the rescue...
 

fifthdawn

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I used the same treatment as well. Mines keep getting fungus on bottom of shell. Everytime it clears up it comes back after awhile. I'm starting to think cypress mulch might be too wet. But when I lower it, the humidity drops...so I'm constantly experimenting with the wetness.

But afterawhile, I'm starting to think maybe its just dirt from the mulch. It seems to clear up alot after soaking... lol I think I've been treating dirt for few weeks...or maybe not, it doesnt come off from scratching it.
 

Redfoot NERD

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I precribe the cypress because it will retain "some" humidity but is not designed for that reason alone. ANY substrate will enhance 'fungal' issues when kept too wet! I like 100% cypress because it 'resists' bugs, etc. - [ regardless what opinions and threads say differently ] - so keep your cypress. Here's "our" method.. you can see the results.. ( scroll down to videos ).. http://www.redfoots.com/smf/index.php?topic=544.0

I would continue to use the "cream" on top of the liquid to actually 'seal' in the medication effects! I have to Q? the dry-dock idea for a redfoot.. all things in moderation of course.

Now before anyone comes back with any "researched" yadda-yadda about this -- keep in mind there are always exceptions and extremes.. and we don't know until a method is used for a period of time what we're really dealing with here.

ALSO keep in mind.. redfoot husbandry IS different than Mediterraneans', etc. Not more difficult.. different. Diet and humidity are different and I've found that many will keep the substrate too wet in an effort to keep the humidity higher!

Hope this helps...

NERD
 

-ryan-

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Thanks for the advice! I don't really want to set up an account in order to post pictures, but anyone that would like to see a pic can send me an email and I'd be happy to send one back to you.

Redfoot NERD, I can't seem to view anything on that site, and it says that registration is disabled?

The reason I switched to the cypress was because the dirt would suck up water and then not release it. When the cypress gets wet from misting it will release the water back into the air. The dirt works great for the russians, but I don't mist them. I do think that the muddy conditions play a role in the shell rot, but there was probably also some fecal contamination (pooping in the water and then spilling the water... poopy muddy mess) that could have gotten into the fresh growth on his shell. Anyway, I think his setup is pretty good now, and I want to avoid keeping his habitat bone dry because other than the shell rot, he is doing fantastic and I don't really want to mess that up. This is not the 'flakey, to the bone' shell rot. It's just some small white patches between the scutes.

If it is bacterial, is there anything I should be doing differently to treat it? I thought I had heard somewhere that triple antiobiotic ointment (neosporin?) was good for shell rot as well?

Thanks for the advice. As I said, his shell is consistently showing improvement, but it's mostly in the more severe areas, and it seems to be taking a lot longer than I anticipated.
 

Redfoot NERD

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ryan we're trying to help you.. this doesn't sound like you're willing to do your part?
I don't really want to set up an account in order to post pictures, but anyone that would like to see a pic can send me an email and I'd be happy to send one back to you.

I have sent you a PM.. reply!

NERD
 

-ryan-

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Redfoot NERD said:
ryan we're trying to help you.. this doesn't sound like you're willing to do your part?
I don't really want to set up an account in order to post pictures, but anyone that would like to see a pic can send me an email and I'd be happy to send one back to you.

I have sent you a PM.. reply!

NERD

Let's try something for a second:



Want to add that the bright white stuff and any 'dampness' on the shell is the cream that I had just applied when the picture was taken. It was taken over a month ago. I will try to get new pics tomorrow if I can (I need time to find the camera, and my time is limited as I am a full-time student and I run a business and work 7 days a week).
 

terryo

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I kept my Cherry Head on mostly wet substrate to keep up the humidity, and he got the start of fungus. I followed the care sheet in Terry K's post, and it totally disappeared within 3 weeks. I didn't keep him in any place other than his enclosure. Now I only water the plants and mist them. The substrate that he walks on is dry. The plants keep the humidity in the air. Well, I couldn't find the before picture but this is after it was almost gone.
001-22.jpg
 

-ryan-

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Let me know if that shows up.

P.S. The moss in the box was added when I moved him into his new enclosure. It is kept clean and just slightly moist, so I believe it has nothing to do with it.

terryo said:
I kept my Cherry Head on mostly wet substrate to keep up the humidity, and he got the start of fungus. I followed the care sheet in Terry K's post, and it totally disappeared within 3 weeks. I didn't keep him in any place other than his enclosure. Now I only water the plants and mist them. The substrate that he walks on is dry. The plants keep the humidity in the air. Well, I couldn't find the before picture but this is after it was almost gone.
001-22.jpg

Would somebody please tell me what the caresheet says? I can't seem to get on that website and it won't let me register.
 

-ryan-

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emysemys said:
If you click on Ryan's picture it comes up bigger.

Ryan: Are you sure that not just new growth? Try this one: http://www.turtletary.com/redfootcare.htm

Okay, that one works, I didn't know that was the one they were referring to. I thought maybe there was something specifically for shell rot in the link that he posted to the other message forum? That's the one I can't access.

If you look closely at the pictures, some of the spots appear in areas of old growth (just above and below the new growth line). At first when it had just begun I thought the same thing, which is why I didn't act on it immediately, but I believe it is some kind of shell rot. I will try to get better pics tomorrow! Maybe even tonight when I get done working (yuk).
 

-ryan-

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It still says I need to be registered, but then it says registration is disabled.
 

Redfoot NERD

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-ryan- said:
It still says I need to be registered, but then it says registration is disabled.

Email Wiggles the admin.. and request registration! Just spoke with Wiggles.. the spammers have been wearing out the bandwidth.. so he has had to disable registration.

Just do it Ryan.. give me a call and get those pics...

NERD
 

-ryan-

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Sorry I'm not that great at taking pictures, but here are some recent ones. You can see in the close up the more severe spots, and those are actually the ones that show the most improvement (where they were all off-white almost two months ago, now they are brown and turning back to black). I am just a bit confused about the smaller patches and why those don't show as much improvement. Click on the thumbnail for larger pics.





 

Redfoot NERD

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Where is the fungus??? All I see is "growth" between the scutes...

NERD
 

-ryan-

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I was concerned that it might be fungus because there was some pitting (a small pit, about 1/4" long and maybe 1/8" of an inch deep at a point between the top scutes where it seemed most severe. This seems to be fixing itself now. Also, it's not all directly between the scutes. Some of it is in areas of older growth (just off to the side of where the new growth would be). If you look at the first pic I posted of the tortoise in his hide spot you can kind of see what I am talking about in that regard.

Here's where I saw the 'pitting', which is actually now not nearly as bad. It seems to be filling in. When I first saw it, however, it was a little more startling. That is why I started to suspect that this wasn't normal shell growth. Does this kind of thing normally accompany shell growth?
 
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