Should tortoise forum start providing separate guidelines of care between dry-started tortoises and well-started tortoises?

Minority2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2018
Messages
1,052
Location (City and/or State)
Tortoise Hell
For the purpose of trying to possibly decline the mortality rates of dry started babies, should members start differentiating care advice between one or the other?

This is just a hypothetical question as I am personally not qualified to either create any studies nor do I have enough first-hand knowledge on how tortoises really behave in their respective natural environments. I leave those enlightening lessons to the people generous enough to bring their knowledge into this discussion.

Example:
Tortoises in nature are probably not eating as much on a regular basis as a captive pet tortoise would. They're prey animals that travel a great deal of distance and may not even eat daily depending on the situation at hand such as predators, navigable terrain, and weather. This means their general growth stages may not be as fast or as sudden as a captive pet tortoise.

Now a tortoise hatchling of several month's bodily organs is mostly developed, as much as it is able to at that age and depending on the type of practice used, I wonder if suggestions of offering less overall food for the purpose of increasing the time between growth phases, would theoretically allow the tortoise to have more time to settle, acclimate, and get used to their bodily changes before the next growth phase occurs. Would this possibly allow dry started tortoises a higher chance of living past that grueling hatchling to yearling period?

There are also other issues like keeping dry started tortoises suffering form humid enclosures to hibernation that I would love to hear more about from the more experienced owners regarding the two different practices used and whether if you believe certain changes can help towards these unfortunate tortoises born in a less than optimal circumstance.
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,658
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
Prey animals? They eat weeds, grasses, plants.
In my opinion, if left to continue being raised dry or too far from the proper way, they would probably still not survive.
Some would as nothing is really 100% but most probably not. Just my opinion.
 

Minority2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2018
Messages
1,052
Location (City and/or State)
Tortoise Hell
Prey animals? They eat weeds, grasses, plants.
In my opinion, if left to continue being raised dry or too far from the proper way, they would probably still not survive.
Some would as nothing is really 100% but most probably not. Just my opinion.

They may primarily eat vegetation in their natural environment but they're also considered a delectable meal by a number of different animals such as coyotes, foxes, badgers, and ravens if they're caught outside their burrows.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Optimal care is the same for each, regardless of how they were started. If they were started poorly, the best thing to do is get them hydrated and into the correct conditions. If they were well started, the best thing to do is keep them hydrated and in the correct conditions.
 

Posiewosie1

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2023
Messages
32
Location (City and/or State)
Dorset
Optimal care is the same for each, regardless of how they were started. If they were started poorly, the best thing to do is get them hydrated and into the correct conditions. If they were well started, the best thing to do is keep them hydrated and in the correct conditions.
If the young tortoise you have bought has been dry started what could be warning signs to look out for? Is it likely one day it will go soft and die? Can anything be prevented or will they generally be doomed. Found out today my tortoise was dry started!
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,658
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
If the young tortoise you have bought has been dry started what could be warning signs to look out for? Is it likely one day it will go soft and die? Can anything be prevented or will they generally be doomed. Found out today my tortoise was dry started!
Main thing you likely will see is pyramiding. Young ones that are started dry have already started to pyramid at a fairly young age, under 6 months in a lot of cases
Best thing to do is ask how they are raised before buying. If they don't start them from the egg with humidity, then run and move on to find the breeders that do. Most active members on this forum that are breeders will start them right. Not all though.
 

Posiewosie1

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2023
Messages
32
Location (City and/or State)
Dorset
Main thing you likely will see is pyramiding. Young ones that are started dry have already started to pyramid at a fairly young age, under 6 months in a lot of cases
Best thing to do is ask how they are raised before buying. If they don't start them from the egg with humidity, then run and move on to find the breeders that do. Most active members on this forum that are breeders will start them right. Not all though.
Yes I hadn't joined before and had no clue about dry startings til I read Tom's post. My tortoises seems pretty smooth and are 11 months old according to the breeder so hopefully I can put them back into good health. I just really don't want to find them all soft and dead one day.
 

Posiewosie1

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2023
Messages
32
Location (City and/or State)
Dorset
Main thing you likely will see is pyramiding. Young ones that are started dry have already started to pyramid at a fairly young age, under 6 months in a lot of cases
Best thing to do is ask how they are raised before buying. If they don't start them from the egg with humidity, then run and move on to find the breeders that do. Most active members on this forum that are breeders will start them right. Not all though.
Does that look like pyramiding. I did slightly press the shell underneath and it is bendy almost a bit like a plastic lid but not soft or spongey.
 

Attachments

  • 20230712_131443.jpg
    20230712_131443.jpg
    1.6 MB · Views: 11
  • 20230712_131931.jpg
    20230712_131931.jpg
    1.7 MB · Views: 11

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,388
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
To answer the subject title's question - no, because the care is the same: set them up in a closed enclosure, warm and humid and follow the care sheet for the species.
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,658
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
Does that look like pyramiding. I did slightly press the shell underneath and it is bendy almost a bit like a plastic lid but not soft or spongey.
Yes, looks like a lot of pyramiding for it's size. Take a couple more pics to be sure it's not the angle. Are you using a mercury vapor bulb or a halogen bulb? Both will cause pyramiding no matter how right everything else is.
 

Posiewosie1

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2023
Messages
32
Location (City and/or State)
Dorset
Yes, looks like a lot of pyramiding for it's size. Take a couple more pics to be sure it's not the angle. Are you using a mercury vapor bulb or a halogen bulb? Both will cause pyramiding no matter how right everything else is.
I'm using a arcadia mercury bulb 80watt but they do get a few hours outside a week. Misted throughout the day, humid hides, lots of plants to keep humidity up etc. One is very smooth but it's also smaller then the one that might be having pyramiding. Thanks for the help also!
 

Attachments

  • 20230711_111522.jpg
    20230711_111522.jpg
    1.7 MB · Views: 3
  • Screenshot_20230714_031753_Gallery.jpg
    Screenshot_20230714_031753_Gallery.jpg
    433.8 KB · Views: 4

Posiewosie1

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2023
Messages
32
Location (City and/or State)
Dorset
I'm using a arcadia mercury bulb 80watt but they do get a few hours outside a week. Misted throughout the day, humid hides, lots of plants to keep humidity up etc. One is very smooth but it's also smaller then the one that might be having pyramiding. Thanks for the help also!
Yes, looks like a lot of pyramiding for it's size. Take a couple more pics to be sure it's not the angle. Are you using a mercury vapor bulb or a halogen bulb? Both will cause pyramiding no matter how right everything else is.
I can get really clear pics tomorrow as they are sleeping now. They also have hard clear bits around the edge of the shells which I'm assuming is new growth?
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,658
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
Yes, the one in the left pic is the pyramidimg one. Are you housing them together? That's a no go too. Never house in pairs.
Get rid of the mercury bulb. Separate them if they are together.
 

Posiewosie1

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2023
Messages
32
Location (City and/or State)
Dorset
Yes, the one in the left pic is the pyramidimg one. Are you housing them together? That's a no go too. Never house in pairs.
Get rid of the mercury bulb. Separate them if they are together.
Bugger, I wonder why one is pyramiding more as the little one is really flat and smooth (iI think). They are housed together they are from the same batch. Do you think they could possibly be younger as my mum has a Hermann the same age but 2 times as big as those 2?
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,658
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
Bugger, I wonder why one is pyramiding more as the little one is really flat and smooth (iI think). They are housed together they are from the same batch. Do you think they could possibly be younger as my mum has a Hermann the same age but 2 times as big as those 2?
Housing them together puts them under a lot of stress. The bigger one is likely the bully and bullying the smaller one. Sometimes it works the opposite way.
No matter how old they are, they need to be separated and the mercury replaced.
 

Posiewosie1

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2023
Messages
32
Location (City and/or State)
Dorset
Just out of interest as I haven't owned them before and I'm no expert but why is everyone so insistent on bullying as I seen many breeders stick young tortoise all together after they have just hatched up until the last one is sold. Does that mean when they are hatched they should all live separately as mine was not they was from a big batch of like 40 in one container (contradicting info as I read they don't start bullying until they reach maturity and get along fine as youngsters as when young they all seem to stay close by too where they hatched in the wild). I will definitely get the bulb replaced. They will be split up very soon and they will be living outdoors from next year separately anyways as that was always my plan.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
If the young tortoise you have bought has been dry started what could be warning signs to look out for? Is it likely one day it will go soft and die? Can anything be prevented or will they generally be doomed. Found out today my tortoise was dry started!
The tell-tale early warning sign is lack of growth. If your baby is staying the same weight week after week and not growing, you might have an issue. The lethargy, lack of appetite, and shell softening all come later. Generally speaking, once the baby is over 50 grams and steadily growing, you don't have anything to be concerned about in this regard. Your baby isn't going to die from a dry start after it passes 50 grams.

Just out of interest as I haven't owned them before and I'm no expert but why is everyone so insistent on bullying as I seen many breeders stick young tortoise all together
Pairs are the problem. Groups of babies or juveniles are usually fine. Just not pairs.

This thread will help you. Look for the temperate species care sheet and the heating and lighting breakdown near the bottom:
 

Posiewosie1

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2023
Messages
32
Location (City and/or State)
Dorset
The tell-tale early warning sign is lack of growth. If your baby is staying the same weight week after week and not growing, you might have an issue. The lethargy, lack of appetite, and shell softening all come later. Generally speaking, once the baby is over 50 grams and steadily growing, you don't have anything to be concerned about in this regard. Your baby isn't going to die from a dry start after it passes 50 grams.


Pairs are the problem. Groups of babies or juveniles are usually fine. Just not pairs.

This thread will help you. Look for the temperate species care sheet and the heating and lighting breakdown near the bottom:
Thanks Tom for your knowledge. I will go over that again and make necessary changes and separate them as soon as I get another enclosure built up that's no problem. It's really strange the breeder started them dry as he recommended I watch garden state tortoise for all my info and he advocated humidity etc! That's why I also got the same bulb he recommended.

What could cause the pyramiding so fast as I feel so disappointed saying this but it came completely smooth and I feel awful that it's pyramided within 3/4 weeks. I know the other is really smooth. If I took clear pictures could you possibly take a moment to tell me how severe it is!
Thank you.
 

Posiewosie1

Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2023
Messages
32
Location (City and/or State)
Dorset

Attachments

  • 20230714_110152.jpg
    20230714_110152.jpg
    1.3 MB · Views: 5
  • 20230714_110201.jpg
    20230714_110201.jpg
    1.1 MB · Views: 5
  • 20230714_110209.jpg
    20230714_110209.jpg
    1.7 MB · Views: 5
  • 20230714_110719.jpg
    20230714_110719.jpg
    1,023.3 KB · Views: 6
Top