Signs of bullying in young tortoises

Tom

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'Following' is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one.

Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The aggression is much more subtle. These are solitary animals. Other torts are not seen as friends. They are seen as intruders or competitors for limited resources. Other torts are not wanted, and having them in pairs causes low grade stress that can hamper their immune systems, lessen their appetites, and stunt growth too.

Groups of babies can usually work. It is pairs that are the problem. Its too personal. Groups dynamics are different than pair dynamics.
 

JackieJax

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Now... what do I do when my tortiose is bullying me?! Tortimer is no longer scared of me. If I make any change to the backyard, he goes right to it and knocks it down or lays on it. So the garden I've been growing for him has been smashed. He'll come up to me and look at my hands. If I don't have anything for him to eat in my hands, he steps on me. At first I thought it was a fluke the first 4 times. Then I started dodging him. He'll stop, turn, look for my feet and step where they were or follow me until he steps on me. If I do give him something like a piece of pumpkin or a veggie... he now let's me pet him without hiding. I can hear him right now trying to tear down the tomato planter I put up on the side of the house.
 

Tom

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Now... what do I do when my tortiose is bullying me?! Tortimer is no longer scared of me. If I make any change to the backyard, he goes right to it and knocks it down or lays on it. So the garden I've been growing for him has been smashed. He'll come up to me and look at my hands. If I don't have anything for him to eat in my hands, he steps on me. At first I thought it was a fluke the first 4 times. Then I started dodging him. He'll stop, turn, look for my feet and step where they were or follow me until he steps on me. If I do give him something like a piece of pumpkin or a veggie... he now let's me pet him without hiding. I can hear him right now trying to tear down the tomato planter I put up on the side of the house.
You have a normal sulcata that is behaving like a normal sulcata. As he grows you will need to make the enclosure and furniture in it "giant tortoise proof". If not, you'll be seeing things like this:

"Heeeeeeeeere's Johnny!!!"
z5buxv2twye11 (1).jpg
 

JackieJax

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Hahahaha! He has about a quarter acre of grass that he thinks is far, far too small. I sectioned off an area that was supposed to be his garden, but yesterday he decided to trample everything and eat the heads off all of the plants that were barely sprouting. Poor things are only stems sticking out of the ground. He didn't knock over the hibiscus plant I'm growing for him... surprisingly. His nightbox is the insulated 8 ft x 4 ft x 2 ft one that I saw plans for linked on here. I also added an insulated 6ft x 10ft day shed as well. I have a little hallway connecting the two. They're both thermostat controlled, so it helps. But yeah... im going to have to make the doorway a bit bigger pretty soon.

My biggest issue with him now... other than him stepping on me, "chasing" the cats, and knocking things over... is him constantly trying to escape. All the gates are covered so he can't see out. But he knows there is a world on the other side anyways. I had to board up the inside of the covered chain link fence because he tore through the fabric and kept trying to climb up it. He hurt a couple of his scutes and it freaked me out. Every day I hear him scraping against the boards and the house while I'm working. The backyard is starting to look like a paintball village with how many boards I keep putting up.
 

JackieJax

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Side note... I did make the mistake of letting him in the house when I first got him. Positive thing to come out of that experience... I learned how to fix dry wall and tile that weekend.
 

Tom

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Hahahaha! He has about a quarter acre of grass that he thinks is far, far too small. I sectioned off an area that was supposed to be his garden, but yesterday he decided to trample everything and eat the heads off all of the plants that were barely sprouting. Poor things are only stems sticking out of the ground. He didn't knock over the hibiscus plant I'm growing for him... surprisingly. His nightbox is the insulated 8 ft x 4 ft x 2 ft one that I saw plans for linked on here. I also added an insulated 6ft x 10ft day shed as well. I have a little hallway connecting the two. They're both thermostat controlled, so it helps. But yeah... im going to have to make the doorway a bit bigger pretty soon.

My biggest issue with him now... other than him stepping on me, "chasing" the cats, and knocking things over... is him constantly trying to escape. All the gates are covered so he can't see out. But he knows there is a world on the other side anyways. I had to board up the inside of the covered chain link fence because he tore through the fabric and kept trying to climb up it. He hurt a couple of his scutes and it freaked me out. Every day I hear him scraping against the boards and the house while I'm working. The backyard is starting to look like a paintball village with how many boards I keep putting up.
Few people realize the destructive potential of a large sulcata. You and I certainly do...
 

JackieJax

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Few people realize the destructive potential of a large sulcata. You and I certainly do...
Hahaha yes!!! Their stubbornness rivals my own and my cats. I've had to talk people out of getting them as pets. Their cute and it's all fun and games until you're having to replace siding on a house and needing to spend hundreds to thousands on keeping them comfortable. Not happy... just comfortable. LoL
 

sammysue101

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'Following' is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one.

Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The aggression is much more subtle. These are solitary animals. Other torts are not seen as friends. They are seen as intruders or competitors for limited resources. Other torts are not wanted, and having them in pairs causes low grade stress that can hamper their immune systems, lessen their appetites, and stunt growth too.

Groups of babies can usually work. It is pairs that are the problem. Its too personal. Groups dynamics are different than pair dynamics.
I have two baby Sulcatas. About 3- 4 months old. They were approximately the same size when we got them about a month and a half ago. One was slightly bigger but now the bigger one is quite a bit bigger than the other. When I was reading I saw in multiple places that you should get more than one so I got two. Reading your comment what should I do? Add another or??? Tia
 

SinLA

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I have two baby Sulcatas. About 3- 4 months old. They were approximately the same size when we got them about a month and a half ago. One was slightly bigger but now the bigger one is quite a bit bigger than the other. When I was reading I saw in multiple places that you should get more than one so I got two. Reading your comment what should I do? Add another or??? Tia
What you are seeing is very common. One is bullying the other, and keeping it from thriving. You need two separate enclosures or to find a new home for one.
 

sammysue101

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What you are seeing is very common. One is bullying the other, and keeping it from thriving. You need two separate enclosures or to find a new home for one.
Then they will have to be separated for their whole lives correct? I would like to keep them both as one is mine and the other is my boyfriends and we both love our babies. Would it be worth a shot to add another and see the dynamic? And if there is issues find a new home for the new one? And separate then? I would love to keep them together and live harmoniously the best as possible. I understand when they get older you can only have one male and multiple females. Or only females. But never more then one male or one male and one female. Obviously we will not know their sex for a long while and cross that bridge when we get there.
 

PollyAda

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I think you may have to ask yourself if you have the room to house and care for 2, or 3, sulcatas when they are fully grown (even in the interim, if you decided to re-home one of them).

You may already know that the sulcata is the third largest species of tortoise, so housing and caring for them properly will be a big commitment. This is true for all tortoises, but especially the large species that need a significant amount of space to thrive. Much forward planning is needed, as they will grow very large very quickly. If you did end up with 2 or 3 males, would you be able to manage?
 

sammysue101

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Yee
I think you may have to ask yourself if you have the room to house and care for 2, or 3, sulcatas when they are fully grown (even in the interim, if you decided to re-home one of them).

You may already know that the sulcata is the third largest species of tortoise, so housing and caring for them properly will be a big commitment. This is true for all tortoises, but especially the large species that need a significant amount of space to thrive. Much forward planning is needed, as they will grow very large very quickly. If you did end up with 2 or 3 males, would you be able to man
I think you may have to ask yourself if you have the room to house and care for 2, or 3, sulcatas when they are fully grown (even in the interim, if you decided to re-home one of them).

You may already know that the sulcata is the third largest species of tortoise, so housing and caring for them properly will be a big commitment. This is true for all tortoises, but especially the large species that need a significant amount of space to thrive. Much forward planning is needed, as they will grow very large very quickly. If you did end up with 2 or 3 males, would you be able to manage?
We have the space for them when they are ready to go outside. I understand the commitment and I am trying to make them happy in the meantime. There is no way to know their sex for a long time. We are forsure going to keep the two we have now. I am just trying to see if adding a third can make them happier and deflect the “aggression” which they aren’t showing visible signs of aggression but as stated one has grown larger then the other which makes me worried. Also I’m trying to avoid any of these issues in hopes they can live together happily forever. If the two still needed to be separated after making every effort I will do so.
 

zovick

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I have two baby Sulcatas. About 3- 4 months old. They were approximately the same size when we got them about a month and a half ago. One was slightly bigger but now the bigger one is quite a bit bigger than the other. When I was reading I saw in multiple places that you should get more than one so I got two. Reading your comment what should I do? Add another or??? Tia
You could add one more or you could get two more and have a total of four. That way you and your boyfriend could each have two. Whether one or two are added, you would need to get new ones which are the same size as the ones you already have so that they would all be able to compete for food on an even playing field.

Alternatively, one of you could bite the bullet and rehome their tortoise, leaving you with one to share between the two of you. This is most likely your best option, as having 3 or 4 rapidly growing sulcatas is a whole lot of work after just a couple of years. When properly cared for, they can reach 50 pounds in as little as three years. That is a lot of tortoise.
 

Tom

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I have two baby Sulcatas. About 3- 4 months old. They were approximately the same size when we got them about a month and a half ago. One was slightly bigger but now the bigger one is quite a bit bigger than the other. When I was reading I saw in multiple places that you should get more than one so I got two. Reading your comment what should I do? Add another or??? Tia
Great advice from SinLA, PollyAda and Zovick.

I would add that you are/were reading the wrong material. Start with this thread and look for the care sheet toward the bottom. It seems likely that you have found the wrong advice:
 

wellington

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Yee


We have the space for them when they are ready to go outside. I understand the commitment and I am trying to make them happy in the meantime. There is no way to know their sex for a long time. We are forsure going to keep the two we have now. I am just trying to see if adding a third can make them happier and deflect the “aggression” which they aren’t showing visible signs of aggression but as stated one has grown larger then the other which makes me worried. Also I’m trying to avoid any of these issues in hopes they can live together happily forever. If the two still needed to be separated after making every effort I will do so.
A pair, even if one is male and one is female, they will never live happy together as a pair. They need to be separated now. If you get a third, and you end up with all males, do you have the room, and means in money, to separate all three?
 

SinLA

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Can you describe the space you have for them (now and future)?
 

Tim Carlisle

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A pair, even if one is male and one is female, they will never live happy together as a pair. They need to be separated now. If you get a third, and you end up with all males, do you have the room, and means in money, to separate all three?
I have the hardest time convincing some folks of this. I've used some rather graphic examples including a video from Kamp Kenan where one died. It especially infuriates me when these same people come back years later concerned that one of their torts is not growing or hides all day in a corner. There was even one I warned whose sully suffered a gular to the throat. They were less concerned about the death of their tort than they were about getting it replaced with another tort because they feared the survivor would be lonely! SMH. I've linked Tom's thread dozens of times. People seriously fight me over it. The people who post that they've kept pairs for years without incident don't help either! <end rant>
 

wellington

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I have the hardest time convincing some folks of this. I've used some rather graphic examples including a video from Kamp Kenan where one died. It especially infuriates me when these same people come back years later concerned that one of their torts is not growing or hides all day in a corner. There was even one I warned whose sully suffered a gular to the throat. They were less concerned about the death of their tort than they were about getting it replaced with another tort because they feared the survivor would be lonely! SMH. I've linked Tom's thread dozens of times. People seriously fight me over it. The people who post that they've kept pairs for years without incident don't help either! <end rant>
I have a hard time believing that pairs living together for years with no problems is even true. I believe they just aren't seeing the evidence of the bullying. Unless the area they live in, is so large, they never or very seldom ever cross paths.
I don't understand why it's so hard for people to comprehend. If they just did a little research, they could find many pictures of single tortoises. Usually the pictures with two, one is flipped.
You've seen/heard some bad ones, yikes.
 

Tom

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I have the hardest time convincing some folks of this. I've used some rather graphic examples including a video from Kamp Kenan where one died. It especially infuriates me when these same people come back years later concerned that one of their torts is not growing or hides all day in a corner. There was even one I warned whose sully suffered a gular to the throat. They were less concerned about the death of their tort than they were about getting it replaced with another tort because they feared the survivor would be lonely! SMH. I've linked Tom's thread dozens of times. People seriously fight me over it. The people who post that they've kept pairs for years without incident don't help either! <end rant>
Yep. Its the age old: "Well I've been doing it this way for _____ years and they are fine..." argument. Then when you get more details, you find out that they are not fine in any way, shape, or form. Many people shy away from this argument because they don't like confrontation and feel that it is pointless. I don't mind confrontation, and I don't think it is pointless. Even if I am dismissed, insulted, or threatened, I have still planted a seed of knowledge in that person's head. In time, at least some of those seeds come to fruition and those people learn what I was trying to teach them.
 

sammysue101

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Thank you all! We have decided to separate them in different enclosures in the meantime. We are not 100% sure if we will keep them both or rehome one quite yet. My next question is if they both happened to be females years down the road would we be able to try and re introduce them?
 
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