Signs of bullying in young tortoises

sammysue101

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Great advice from SinLA, PollyAda and Zovick.

I would add that you are/were reading the wrong material. Start with this thread and look for the care sheet toward the bottom. It seems likely that you have found the wrong advice:
Thank you Tom! This information is great. Before we got them I spent lots of time on many many different websites and watched hundreds of videos on them and they were all contradicting. I will from now on go off of the information you provided. I really appreciate it. We had gone to the store and set up their entire enclosure before we got them and the breeder we got them from told us to get rid of the “forest floor” we had gotten and told us to use the pellet litter instead because and I quote ,” the moisture will cause them to get respiratory infections.” We used that for a few days then after further research ( I am constantly on the internet looking at new information / learning more about these guys) switched their substrate to organic soil and cypress mulch. I was also told to feed them romaine lettuce daily. I then was feeding them that and dandelion greens and collard greens. Yesterday I read I should grow their own grass so I ordered natures seed blend for tortoises. I think I will buy some grass pots in the mean time while I wait for this to come in and grow to introduce grass to them over their food as when I take them outside one of them will graze on grass and weeds in the yard but not the other.
 

zovick

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Thank you all! We have decided to separate them in different enclosures in the meantime. We are not 100% sure if we will keep them both or rehome one quite yet. My next question is if they both happened to be females years down the road would we be able to try and re introduce them?
It would still be a problem since tortoises are basically solitary creatures. They do not have human-like emotions. They are programmed to eat, survive predators, and reproduce their own kind. Other than when in breeding mode, they don't care if they ever see another tortoise. They simply look upon another tortoise as competition for the food supply in their personal territory.

If you look at life the way your tortoises do, you would not force them to live together. You may make yourself believe they are happy together, but it will make life for at least one (and probably both) of the two tortoises a stressful existence.
 

sammysue101

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It would still be a problem since tortoises are basically solitary creatures. They do not have human-like emotions. They are programmed to eat, survive predators, and reproduce their own kind. Other than when in breeding mode, they don't care if they ever see another tortoise. They simply look upon another tortoise as competition for the food supply in their personal territory.

If you look at life the way your tortoises do, you would not force them to live together. You may make yourself believe they are happy together, but it will make life for at least one (and probably both) of the two tortoises a stressful existence.
Thank you, okay we will keep them separated. Next question would be if they were both females and we found a male same size when we get there then would they be able to be all together or best to always keep separated?
 

Tom

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Thank you, okay we will keep them separated. Next question would be if they were both females and we found a male same size when we get there then would they be able to be all together or best to always keep separated?
The best answer anyone can give is is maybe. That would likely work if the enclosure is large with lots of sight barriers, but if you do that, your new hobby/job will be incubating eggs and finding homes for 100s of baby sulcatas annually. Each female can produce 100 babies per year. Sometimes more.
 

sammysue101

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Thank you, okay we will keep them separated. Next question would be if they were both females and we found a male same size when we get there then would they be able to be all together or best to always keep separated?
The best answer anyone can give is is maybe. That would likely work if the enclosure is large with lots of sight barriers, but if you do that, your new hobby/job will be incubating eggs and finding homes for 100s of baby sulcatas annually. Each female can produce 100 babies per year. Sometimes more.
What if we never incubated the eggs?
 

zovick

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What if we never incubated the eggs?
That would be a good plan and would save you a lot of trouble hatching and raising babies, plus almost continually trying to find homes for the babies as Tom said.

You might even find a market for the eggs as there are some cultures which like to eat turtle/tortoise eggs.
 

Tom

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What if we never incubated the eggs?
I've considered that, but I could never bring myself to go through with it. All those little lives just waiting to be someone's new beloved pet...

Also, depending on where you are in CA, they will likely hatch in the ground if you leave them.
 

Tortoise Nana

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'Following' is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one.

Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The aggression is much more subtle. These are solitary animals. Other torts are not seen as friends. They are seen as intruders or competitors for limited resources. Other torts are not wanted, and having them in pairs causes low grade stress that can hamper their immune systems, lessen their appetites, and stunt growth too.

Groups of babies can usually work. It is pairs that are the problem. Its too personal. Groups dynamics are different than pair dynamics.
I tried to tell my son that folks on TF said that one if his torts was bullying the other and he swore it wasn’t. Since they’ve come out of brumation Rock has doubled in size ( he was already bigger than Roll). When I go out to fed or just check on them they are usually resting in the base of the palm tree together. When they’re fed they both climb into their bowls. I’m going to have to section off the area they are living in. I’m very concerned about Roll’s growth and mental health. I’m so glad that I joined the forum. I have learned so much.
 

wendigo

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'Following' is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one.

Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The aggression is much more subtle. These are solitary animals. Other torts are not seen as friends. They are seen as intruders or competitors for limited resources. Other torts are not wanted, and having them in pairs causes low grade stress that can hamper their immune systems, lessen their appetites, and stunt growth too.

Groups of babies can usually work. It is pairs that are the problem. Its too personal. Groups dynamics are different than pair dynamics.
Does this hold true for redfoots as well? I ended up with 2 baby redfoots (not by choice, we had one out of a group of eggs hatch, then found a ground hatch, Mom came to us gravid). I thought they were fine, and both are growing like crazy, but when I read your post I thought “crap, that’s everything Pinky and Grounder do” Nothing overt, but sitting on food, piling on top of each other in their hide, etc. The plan is to have them live with Mom in her nice outdoor enclosure once they’re big enough and assuming they’re female (I think my incubated baby is female and my ground hatch is male, but can’t tell yet). Would it help diffuse tensions to get a 3rd baby around their size? Once they’re sexable I’ll be splitting them up regardless. I love Redfoot babies and hatching them was amazing, but there’s a glut of them at every reptile show down here. I don’t need to make more.
 

Tom

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Does this hold true for redfoots as well? I ended up with 2 baby redfoots (not by choice, we had one out of a group of eggs hatch, then found a ground hatch, Mom came to us gravid). I thought they were fine, and both are growing like crazy, but when I read your post I thought “crap, that’s everything Pinky and Grounder do” Nothing overt, but sitting on food, piling on top of each other in their hide, etc. The plan is to have them live with Mom in her nice outdoor enclosure once they’re big enough and assuming they’re female (I think my incubated baby is female and my ground hatch is male, but can’t tell yet). Would it help diffuse tensions to get a 3rd baby around their size? Once they’re sexable I’ll be splitting them up regardless. I love Redfoot babies and hatching them was amazing, but there’s a glut of them at every reptile show down here. I don’t need to make more.
Yes. This applies to all species. It applies to most living things.

We had a member here a few years ago with a pair. We told her to separate them, and that is not really what she wanted to hear, so she went quiet, and after six weeks she came back and posted saying that one RF had bitten the tail and most of one back leg off of the other one over the last few weeks and was asking what she should do now...

I hope that you and everyone reading will learn this lesson quicker than she did. Don't keep them in pairs. Groups of juveniles usually work. As adults, groups can work, but don't always work. Singles are always fine, since they don't "need" company. Pairs are never a good way to go.

You can add one or two more of the same size, but don't forget to quarantine any new ones for 3-6 months, and be prepared to separate all of them if they don't get along. You could also house the two babies separately until they are all large enough to live together as a group.
 

Tim Carlisle

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Yes. This applies to all species. It applies to most living things.

We had a member here a few years ago with a pair. We told her to separate them, and that is not really what she wanted to hear, so she went quiet, and after six weeks she came back and posted saying that one RF had bitten the tail and most of one back leg off of the other one over the last few weeks and was asking what she should do now...

I hope that you and everyone reading will learn this lesson quicker than she did. Don't keep them in pairs. Groups of juveniles usually work. As adults, groups can work, but don't always work. Singles are always fine, since they don't "need" company. Pairs are never a good way to go.

You can add one or two more of the same size, but don't forget to quarantine any new ones for 3-6 months, and be prepared to separate all of them if they don't get along. You could also house the two babies separately until they are all large enough to live together as a group.
I think I remember that post, unfortunately. :(
 

Tortoise Nana

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Does this hold true for redfoots as well? I ended up with 2 baby redfoots (not by choice, we had one out of a group of eggs hatch, then found a ground hatch, Mom came to us gravid). I thought they were fine, and both are growing like crazy, but when I read your post I thought “crap, that’s everything Pinky and Grounder do” Nothing overt, but sitting on food, piling on top of each other in their hide, etc. The plan is to have them live with Mom in her nice outdoor enclosure once they’re big enough and assuming they’re female (I think my incubated baby is female and my ground hatch is male, but can’t tell yet). Would it help diffuse tensions to get a 3rd baby around their size? Once they’re sexable I’ll be splitting them up regardless. I love Redfoot babies and hatching them was amazing, but there’s a glut of them at every reptile show down here. I don’t need to make more.
Thanks for your response Tom. Rock snd Roll are siblings. The mother & father live next door and are the same size. R&R have separate food bowls and they both climb into their bowls when eating. There are several water bowls around, so that doesn’t appear to be an issue. When they are in the palm tree they are sleeping side by side. Rock is not on top. I’ll keep an eye on them this summer and see how they do. If I need to separate them there is plenty of room in the enclosure ( for now) to give each a space of their own.
 

Tom

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Thanks for your response Tom. Rock snd Roll are siblings. The mother & father live next door and are the same size. R&R have separate food bowls and they both climb into their bowls when eating. There are several water bowls around, so that doesn’t appear to be an issue. When they are in the palm tree they are sleeping side by side. Rock is not on top. I’ll keep an eye on them this summer and see how they do. If I need to separate them there is plenty of room in the enclosure ( for now) to give each a space of their own.
Seeing each other and knowing there is one other tortoise in the territory is a problem. Many people are looking for overt aggression like ramming or biting, and if they don't see that, they think everything is A-okay. It isn't. The low grade chronic stress of constantly living in a pair situation takes a toll on their bodies in many ways, similar to humans or other animals living under constant stress. It can hamper their immune systems, suppress developmental hormones, suppress or reduce appetite, make them hide more of the time and the lack of activity can cause constipation or impaction or bladder stone formation... The list of negatives is endless.
 

wendigo

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Yes. This applies to all species. It applies to most living things.

We had a member here a few years ago with a pair. We told her to separate them, and that is not really what she wanted to hear, so she went quiet, and after six weeks she came back and posted saying that one RF had bitten the tail and most of one back leg off of the other one over the last few weeks and was asking what she should do now...

I hope that you and everyone reading will learn this lesson quicker than she did. Don't keep them in pairs. Groups of juveniles usually work. As adults, groups can work, but don't always work. Singles are always fine, since they don't "need" company. Pairs are never a good way to go.

You can add one or two more of the same size, but don't forget to quarantine any new ones for 3-6 months, and be prepared to separate all of them if they don't get along. You could also house the two babies separately until they are all large enough to live together as a group.
Thank you. I know we probably have 5+ years before the intro to mom (she’s 10 lbs) so I think for right now I’m going to separate them. Then we can look into getting 1-2 more yearlings and try then as a group after quarantine. I actually just built them a 6x2 enclosure for the screened porch, it’s kind of a halfway house until they’re a little bigger and can go fully outside. I noticed now that they have more space they are choosing hides on opposite ends of the enclosure. For right now I’m going to cut a divider to fit in the middle so they each get half. I’d be devastated if they injured each other. I peeled Pinky out of the egg and found Grounder almost crushed by his mom a few weeks later on a cold Feb day.

IMG_3107.jpeg
6x2 enclosure

Thank you again for this post. I remember hearing pairs were bad, but figured since they weren’t attacking each other everything was fine. This made me relook at their interactions and will start taking steps to keep them safe.

IMG_2615.jpeg
Pinky and Grounder
 

RiDaGeckoGuy

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'Following' is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one.

Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The aggression is much more subtle. These are solitary animals. Other torts are not seen as friends. They are seen as intruders or competitors for limited resources. Other torts are not wanted, and having them in pairs causes low grade stress that can hamper their immune systems, lessen their appetites, and stunt growth too.

Groups of babies can usually work. It is pairs that are the problem. Its too personal. Groups dynamics are different than pair dynamics.
So what if they show no signs of this and one sleeps in one place and the other sleeps in another. Mine don’t follow each other they don’t fight when they eat they mind their own business and then get on with the day
 

Yvonne G

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So what if they show no signs of this and one sleeps in one place and the other sleeps in another. Mine don’t follow each other they don’t fight when they eat they mind their own business and then get on with the day
The submissive tort of your two is trying its best to stay out of the dominant tortoise's way.
 

Tom

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So what if they show no signs of this and one sleeps in one place and the other sleeps in another. Mine don’t follow each other they don’t fight when they eat they mind their own business and then get on with the day
Please read the second paragraph that you quoted.
 
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