Size of 1 yr old Sulcata....? Advice?

[APBT_Fanatic]

I am new to these forums, but just had one quick question.

I rescued a Sulcata hatchling (who I named Sherman) in March 2009 when he/she was 2 months old. This January Sherman turned 1 year old, but I am concerned with his/her size, as he/she is still very small.

More about Sherman.....

He lives in an indoor, long tuberware container with heating/lighting on one side of the container, allowing the other side to be cooler for him/her. There are 2 hiding places, and he shares his home with 2 CA Desert Tortoise hatchlings (who actually really perked him up when we got them).

They get "soaked" regularly, and when it is warm/sunny outside, all three of them (Sherman and the 2 Desert hatchlings) go out in their outdoor enclosure which provides grass, natural sunlight for proper shell grow, and shady areas. They also have pieces of cuddle bone available in their indoor container. We live in Southern California, so the weather permits them to go outdoors often.

I was scanning previous threads and found a good suggestion to measure tortoises over time-- tracing around them on paper, so will start doing that; however, I really do not think he has gotten much longer or wider since I have had him. His shell seems to be growing just a little, but I was told Sulcata hatchlings grow very quickly, so am a little concerned.

When I got him, he was 1 3/4 inches long and 1 1/2 inches wide. He is now 2 inches long and still about 1 1/2 inches wide... not much bigger at all.

Suggestions and/or adivice are greatly appreciated!

(Along with Sherman and the 2 CA Desert Tortoise hatchlings-- who are about 3 months old-- we have an adult CA Desert Tortoise, adult Russian Tortoise, adult Box Turtle, and 4 Red Eared Sliders... all rescues. I will hopefully be rescuing another turtle this week. The shelter says he/she is a Mud Turtle, but I am not 100% sure what he is yet.)

Thanks!

 

[Annieski]

I'm not as experienced as most on this forum, but I do have a Sulcata. You did not say what you feed Sherman. I know with mine, the growth didn't seem to be alot in the first few months that I had Mortimer[when I got her she was almost 1 year-was 6"long and weighed 8.5oz]. I learned from this forum and my vet-- you want to have Slow and Steady growth. I also learned for the forum, it is not a good idea to house different species together-- not only for competition but for different dietary needs. Congrats on your rescue!

 

[Tom]

Welcome to the forum. We had a thread going with pics and info on some of our APBTs in the dog and cat section here. Thought you might like it.

Annieski is right about not mixing species. Its generally frowned upon and for good reason. Separating them into their own enclosures would be my first step toward solving your "problem". We'd love to see pics of your enclosure and tortoises. It would also be helpful to know your temps: Cool side, warm side, basking SPOT, night. Also, as Annieski mentioned what are you feeding, other than that fantastic natural grazing in the sun? When I've housed multiple tortoises together, one of them usually hogs most of the food. Could this be happening?

There are two things that I always harp on. You are already good in the sunshine department. Have you heard yet that desert species of tortoises need high humidity to avoid pyramiding yet? Sounds strange, I know, but its absolutely true, and, NO, it won't give them a respiratory infection. We all use humidity increasing, damp substrates and some of us use humid hide boxes too. This isn't related to your question, but its my mission to stop pyramiding, once and for all.

Thanks for tolerating my ranting and I hope you get as much enjoyment out of this forum as I do.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi APBT_fanatic:

Would that stand for "American Pit Bull Terrier?" And may we know your name?

Sometimes it is not something that you can see, its something I call "mental bullying." It sounds unreasonable, because sulcatas are very gregarious and outgoing, but if he is being bullied by the CDTs he would not be eating as much as he would if he were on his own.

In my opinion, every different type of tortoise needs his own enclosure. I know it costs a lot more to have two habitats instead of just the one, however, as you have now found out first hand, it is in the tortoise's best interest to be in his own enclosure.

to the forum!!

 

[APBT_Fanatic]

I do not think, at all, it is the other tortoise who are causing the problem, as he was not growing prior to that either, and we have only had them for a few months. They actually perked him up considerably and he became more active, in regards to finding food, exploring around with them outdoors, etc.

In regards to the comment about the Desert Tortoise hatchlings pyrmiding, thanks for the info but they actually look great, and have very nice shells. When we adopted the adult Desert Tortoise, he had been in a home where they were only feeding him store bought food and lived indoors (prior to being rescued), so his shell is a little pyramided, but not too bad from other tortoises I have seen!

Anyways, when I first got Sherman, the person told us to basically only feed him grass when he is outdoors sun bahing. I have since been doing research on their diets, so now know they actually enjoy a couple different types of hay, other weeds, proper lettuce, veggies, etc., so that is definately a change being made.-- We have access to hay, so I am just confirming that Orchard is one of the best types for them, correct? We also have access to Bermuda, Timothy, and Alfalfa (but I doubt they'd like that).

I would now tend to believe it is more of a food issue (proper food, not him being bullied), than anything else.

I will get a picture of their enclosures today and new pics of the hatchlings and Sherman.

Thanks for the info.

---

Here is part of our crew... more to come later--

Mojave, the adult CA Desert Tortoise:

Our Box Turtle Sprinkles:

Mojave with Sprinkles:

 

[chadk]

Grass and weeds from the yard are a great staple diet. Assuming the grass is chemical free...

Alphafa is actually a legume and to high in protien for sullies and desert torts.

Orchard grass is fine. As it timothy hay and bermuda. But most young torts don't eat a lot of hay. you can try soaking it in hot water for several minutes before feeding it. And\or chop it up in tiny slivers with scissors and mix it in with their other foods.

Here is some good reading for anyone with a baby sullie:
http://www.sulcata-station.org/pdf/hatchfail.pdf

 

[APBT_Fanatic]

Some pics of the RES from a few years ago:

The Russian (no name as of yet) when he crawled up on the porch:

New pics of the CA Desert Tortoise hatchlings:

**********************************

Sherman when we first got him:

---

Sherman now:

All together: (Sherman on far left)

The indoor enclosure:
(There are those lids all along the top and a blanket/pillow on the side without the heat, as we have cats who like to bother the tortoises. I took them off for the pic though, so you can see their home.)

Also, I found them sleeping together like this one day:

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Well, it's impossible to see these pictures and not be instantly enamored with all your Chelonia!

Sherman is adorable. I hope you figure out what's wrong with him and get it fixed. It seems like Sulcata are so vulnerable to illness, disease and deformity. I want him to get big and strong and ornery like Bob!

 

[Tom]

I was referring to the humidity for the sulcata too, as most people consider them a desert species. Dried grass hay is usually ignored by small tortoises and is a more appropriate diet for older, bigger ones.

Yvonne was not referring to outright pushing and shoving. Tortoises are solitary animals. If they are in sight of one another, it can induce appetite killing, immune system suppressing stress. Another reptilian example is chameleons. It is difficult to house them on opposite sides of the same room together without solid visual barriers. If they can see each other, the dominant one is mad and the submissive one is scared. In the wild, the less dominant animal would simply walk elsewhere. In captivity they have no escape and so the stress compounds.

Love your pics, BTW.

If all he was eating was the grass and weeds he found outside during warm weather, then its likely he's been underfed. Not the end of the world. Its actually good to grow them slow.

Pyramiding is caused by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity. Not by store bought foods or indoor housing. This is new info. Its only been know to the tortoise community since around 2007, and most others, like pet store folks, some vets and casual tortoise keepers, are still in the dark. Check these sites out:

http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html
http://africantortoise.com/

 

[APBT_Fanatic]

How could I improve humidity in the indoor enclosure pictured above?
Does Sherman's shell look okay so far, in regards to preventing pyramiding?

I read somewhere on these boards that somebody use foil over part of the enclosure...?

Thanks!

 

[andrew71888]

Cute tortoise!

 

[Stephanie Logan]

The quickest way is to humidify Sherman's hide. You can do this by fastening a large sponge to the wall or ceiling and keeping it moist; you can take some sphagnum peat moss, stuff it into a muslin or cloth bag, and keep it warm and moist. This is what I do. Having sphagnum peat moss (you can order it online and it's not super expensive) mixed into your substrate will help retain the moisture you add. I pour hot water from my teapot over the substrate (while Taco is outside exercising), then stir it all up with a barbecue skewer. Some folks also put foil or a plastic bin lid over one side of the enclosure to hold in humidity. I've even seen a couple photos of electric humidifiers/vaporizers set next to or under the tort house; one had a hose that expelled the mist directly into the enclosure. Lots of folks mist everything down with a regular squirt bottle of water.

 

[andrew71888]

(O byw nice converse box i believe)

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Here's one posted today:

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12969.html

 

[APBT_Fanatic]

I think I asked this previously, but don't see any responses to that question. How does Sherman and the hatchling's shells look in regards to pyramiding?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Looks like you are also feeding Mazuri? Sherman's shell is already deformed as you can see she is narrow on her sides and peaked on top. Sulcata and desert babies are too small/young to eat hay. You have a great yard for eating so it looks. I would put them all outside everyday when the sun is shinning. In a predator safe place. I think you need to separate them and start feeding weeds and greens. I'd get Spring Mix and add dandelions and other weeds and cut some grass if it's chemical free and add that. But none of them will grow much as long as you are feeding hay.
Also you need to put them on a substrate that you can keep moist to prevent pyramiding. Hay is not acceptable as a substrate. You need to be able to create humidity to prevent pyramiding and in order to do that you need a substrate you can keep moist.
There is probably mental bullying happening. Tortoises are solitary animals in the wild they would never hang out with another tortoise. You are putting human emotions on animals who don't have the capacity to like another tortoises.
I live in Oregon and I was sent an Eastern box turtle from a rescue in Massachusetts. She was so bullied and abused by other turtles that she can no longer be around other turtles. When she sees another turtle she freezes and her eyes swell up so she can't even see. She stays just like that until she can't see the other animal anymore. She must be alone. Believe me I have tried absolutely everything I can think of to help her over this. The rescue in Matts gave up and sent her to me. I have had her for almost a year and I have seen her stay in a frozen position for over 2 days.
So that's an extreme example but we know what we are saying when we tell you tortoises are not friends with each other and you need to put that Sulcata in a pen alone.

 

[APBT_Fanatic]

They DO get out almost every single day in a predator-safe pen to graze and get natural sunlight for proper shell growth.

I do NOT feed them hay. Yes, I just recently purchased some Mazuri for them. That picture is the first time they ate it. I also purchased some Cactus and seeds to grow plants for them. They sometimes get Romaine lettuce, but that is rarely. Our yards are pesticide-free, but we do not have any dandelions, so when I see them in our neighbors yard (who also doesn't use pesticides) I take them for the tortoises.

Sherman's shell was deformed (lopsided) when I got him at the age of 2 months old. Does that have to do with Pyramiding, or is that just how he will be? I will try to find more pictures of him when I first got him, so you can see his shell.

When I first got Sherman, the person I got him from said just to let him graze in the yard. I have since learned they need more than that (food wise) and am still making proper corrections.

Can you recommend any good substrates to use for the indoor enclosure?

How do the DT hatchling's shells look?

Thanks!

---

When I first got Sherman:

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, now that I see you also have them in contact with a Russian tortoise, my suggestion would be to have Sherman's poop tested for parasites.

 

[APBT_Fanatic]

That was just for a split second until I could put the Russian out in his pen, but thanks for the suggestion.

---

It is also funny (not really) how you can be so ill-informed by somebody in regards to proper care for a tortoise, and how there are so many other opinions out there that conflict with eachother.-- Not talking about the different species specifically, but just care in general. It's kind of disturbing.

---

Additionally, when I got Sherman, I was told really the only care they needed was to be out in the sunlight whenever possible, be soaked, eat grass/weeds, and have heat on them when indoors. With recent further research (hence why I joined these boards in the first place) I have found out that is not the case AT ALL, and am now trying to improve his care. I have already slightly improved his indoor enclosure and his diet.

The person I got him from kept different species together; adults and hatchlings alike (adults: DT, Sulcatas, and Box Turtles- I believe even Russians as well- together... hatchlings: Sulcatas and Leopards together).

So hopefully, now, you can see where I am coming from, as all this is new to me; therefore, I am trying to correct the misleading information I was initially given to improve his care.

I am interested to find out why Sherman's shell was so deformed at such a young age though, as it has been like that ever since.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

But you just yelled at one of our most experienced keepers and that bothers me.
I use cypress mulch for my substrate. Depending on where you live sometimes it can be difficult to impossible to get something that does not have pine in it. Pine is toxic to tortoises so watch out for that. You can also use eco earth or coir and mix that 50/50 with clean play sand. I don't like using anything that says sand.
You have great lawn so why are they on a towel? They should be on the grass to graze it. You can also use fine grade orchid bark. You need to get them off that hay substrate. Did you want to tell use what you are feeding? Your desert babies carapaces look just fine.