Sluggish, Not Eating, Won't Open Eyes

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chrisepperson

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One of my sulcata hatchlings is sick. I have not seen him eat in a number of days, he is not as active as he was, and has had his eyes shut for almost a week.

90-93 & 75 degrees. Cypress mulch, 2 hides. Fed a varied diet of spring mix, romaine lettuce, chicory, mustard greens, etc. with calcium powder. Regular soaks every day. What can I do to improve things?

What about eye drops? http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=417
I know this doesn't treat the underlying issue but...

Please help.
 

TortieGal

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What kind of light are you using? Are you keeping your substrate moist? What is the temp right under the basking light?
 

chrisepperson

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TortieGal said:
What kind of light are you using? Are you keeping your substrate moist? What is the temp right under the basking light?

Powersun UV 100. I lightly spray the mulch daily or every other day with a power sprayer. Basking temp 93, hot side 88-90, cool side 75, night time 70.
 

TortieGal

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I would bring the temp up right under the basking area to about 105. They need there core temp to be 85 just to digest there food. Misting the top with a sprayer will dry out fast under the lights, I take a cup of water and pour it in and mix it around every couple days and get it nice and moist. And I lift his hide up and make sure it stays moist. Hope he gets better soon.
 

chrisepperson

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TortieGal said:
I would bring the temp up right under the basking area to about 105. They need there core temp to be 85 just to digest there food. Misting the top with a sprayer will dry out fast under the lights, I take a cup of water and pour it in and mix it around every couple days and get it nice and moist. And I lift his hide up and make sure it stays moist. Hope he gets better soon.

I don't think it is an issue of hydration. I spray it down with a power sprayer every day. It is plenty humid. I also soak them every day. I am reading a little about hatchling failure syndrome...any thoughts that it may be this?

I have had concern with them from the begining about their eating and pooping and activity level. The other one is much more active and eating well now.
 

tortoisenerd

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I recommend immediate vet care or honestly you can expect to lose this tort. This is a serious issue, and although fixing your husbandry would fix the situation in a less serious case, it is of my opinion it will not help this tort in time. If you need guidance there is a vet list on the main page of the forum. A vet visit can start at $50 and go up from there. Best wishes and good luck.
 

Tom

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Kate is right. The basking spot should be at least 105. I like more like 115-120, but only in one small spot in a good size enclosure. Whenever I see lethargy and lack of appetite, especially during winter, I bump up temps 5-10 degrees and see if that helps. It almost alway does. The eyes are a good indicator of this. My sulcattas were raised bone dry on dry dusty substrates (all wrong) and never had any eye problems. This is not a humidity issue.
 

chrisepperson

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Thanks. I will try the higher temperature...I have them in a Christmas tree storage bin.

How can I get him to eat? He clearly has no interest. I have tried feeding while soaking, pumpkin puree, tomato, strawberry, he has never touched mazuri.

What else can I offer?

What would a vet do?

What about eye drops?
 

DAC8671

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While trying to get a vet appt, try to soak him in jarred baby food carrots. You may need to water it down JUST A LITTLE.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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He needs to go to the Vet now. I would be soaking him in warm babyfood carrots. I have always used this practice thinking that they do drink some and get some benefit. But you need to get him to a Vet right away.
 

chrisepperson

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DAC8671 said:
While trying to get a vet appt, try to soak him in jarred baby food carrots. You may need to water it down JUST A LITTLE.

Got a vet appointment. Can you expalin soaking in baby food carrots?....Put baby food in a container, water it down, stir it up, and place him in it?
 

chandlerledray

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I had the same situation as you about 2 months ago, and it ended sadly.
My little one wasn't growing, and he didn't eat for a long time, was always sluggish, his eyes were shut, and his shell was soft. I scheduled an appointment with the vet, and 200 $ later they gave me a food supplement that I mixed with water and force fed him. It didn't help much, he still didn't move and everything, and then about 2 weeks of doing this he passed.

What I'm trying to say is this is a serious issue, and it might be Hatchling Failure Syndrome. Just give him the best care you can, and hope for the best.

Keep us updated
 

Yvonne G

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chrisepperson said:
Got a vet appointment. Can you expalin soaking in baby food carrots?....Put baby food in a container, water it down, stir it up, and place him in it?

I know a lot of the more experienced tortoise-keepers laugh behind their hands at soaking in baby food, but I can attest to the fact that it really does work. I have rehabilitated many a sick baby this way.

The brand I use is Gerber, and I buy carrots or sweet potatoes or squash. These are the ones with the highest vitamin A content. You mix it about half and half with warm water and place the baby in it. You want to use a container with a small floor space, but with sides high enough that the baby can't climb out. And only mix enough so it comes up to the middle of the sides of the baby. Leave him in the mixture for at least 15 minutes, but longer is better. I sometimes leave them in there for an hour. If your room is warm, 75 degrees or so, the water isn't going to get any colder than room temperature.

While most babies don't actually drink this mixture (some do), they do absorb some nutrients through the thin skin under their throat and the thin skin around the cloaca.

I learned this system from Dr. Gentzler who used to be the vet at our zoo before he had a horrible accident that paralyzed him from the neck down. He was an expert tortoise vet. On a side note, if anyone knows him, he just passed away last Saturday.

I've used this system on box turtles mostly, but on some desert tortoise babies too. It usually only takes three or four days worth of soaks to start to see an improvement.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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Have you noticed the one bullying the other? I have seen that often with my babies and what I would do with yours is to separate them. There's a possibility of mental bullying also. So I bet if you separate them and keep the not eating one just a little warmer then normal he might turn around. Hatchlings are hard to raise and I just don't think that novice keepers should try it. Now you see the one is most probably dying. Have you taken him to a Vet? A Vet might offer antibiotics, for why I don't know. But if it were me I would separate them out now and he might have a chance at living. But if you don't separate them he most probably will die. It's really serious when hatchling stops eating and you don't change his living situation immediately. I am not saying this to be mean, I need for you to understand the gravity of the situation...so move the one, up his temp and soak in carrots.
 

chrisepperson

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I soked in baby carrots...he didn't drink any of it. I used Gerber also, the organic kind. But hopefully like someone said he did absorb it some of it.

I went the vet yesterday. She hit me with a lot of stuff. First she did not like that I fed mainly spring mix...she has a sulcata of her own and has always fed 90% grass hay. So eventhough I tried to get them to eat only this I'm thinking now I should have tried a little harder. She also critized my calcium supplement, herptivite, saying that it doesn't have the correct ratio to phosphorus for absorbtion. She name another type of calcium, I can't remember and I didn't right it down. When I find out I will post it and ask your oppinions. She pointed out that they are dehydrated, despite soaking every day. She said that it could be from the poor calcium, poor lighting (powersun), poor diet, but mainly because they probably have pneumonia.

I left them with her over night (Thursday) and probably until Monday morning, possibly Saturday if they are doing well. She is going to take xrays to confirm pneumonia, hydrate them, insert a feeding tube, put them in a gas chamber so they may inhale some medications. Hopefully this will work.

I called and spoke to her yesterday afternoon she said that after the breathing treatments they both perked up and each peed and pooped on her. I will find out more today. Keep your fingers crossed.




maggie3fan said:
Have you noticed the one bullying the other? I have seen that often with my babies and what I would do with yours is to separate them. There's a possibility of mental bullying also. So I bet if you separate them and keep the not eating one just a little warmer then normal he might turn around. Hatchlings are hard to raise and I just don't think that novice keepers should try it. Now you see the one is most probably dying. Have you taken him to a Vet? A Vet might offer antibiotics, for why I don't know. But if it were me I would separate them out now and he might have a chance at living. But if you don't separate them he most probably will die. It's really serious when hatchling stops eating and you don't change his living situation immediately. I am not saying this to be mean, I need for you to understand the gravity of the situation...so move the one, up his temp and soak in carrots.

I actually did see one snap at the other over food a few weeks ago, right before the one started to go downhill. Now I wish I did completely separate them, I did separate them while feeding. I thought it was odd that the one snapped, because up until then the other had been more active, more agressive, more "alpha male".
 

Stephanie Logan

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Ugh, you are going to have a long weekend ahead. :(

Best wishes to both your babies and please keep us updated on his/their progress. :)

We're here for you.
 

Sudhira

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Sounds like you have an excellent vet! Good on your for taking them in!!
 
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Maggie Cummings

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I am not a Vet and I do not have any sort of a medical degree. But my family has been involved in turtle and tortoise rescue for over 30 years. And in saying that I don't mean that we taken in a turtle every now and then. My sister operates a turtle and tortoise rescue and the both of us have rescued and rehabbed more animals then I can count. I have not been involved as long as my sister, with me it's just been the last few years. But what I am trying to say is that there's the hella lot of experience here and we both use and swear by Spring Mix. I add other leafy greens to Spring Mix and I don't believe small babies can eat hay or even should eat hay. They are babies and they need to eat baby type food. So for us Spring Mix plus other leafy greens is it and I am sorry that your vet doesn't approve. It works.
I had a 4 year old Gopherus agassizii name Cali. I soaked her almost everyday of her life. I got her as a 24 hour old hatchling. I loved her so...one day she stopped eating. So after 3 days when I couldn't get her to eat I took her to my Vet and the very first words out of the Vet's mouth were..."Oh my she's dehydrated"...How could that be? I swear I soaked her every day for the first 3 years then backed off to every other day and still she was dehydrated. She died 3 weeks after she stopped eating. It broke my heart, and I don't know why...my husbandry is right on...but I know how you felt when that vet said yours were dehydrated.
Sometimes everything we do is not enough.
 

evabug1

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Best of luck with your little ones. I hope they pull through.
 

chrisepperson

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I am sad to say they did not make it. My vet called on Friday afternoon and said that the two had passed. She said it was a combination of pneumonia, gout, and dehydration. She suspected that the gout was a cause of poor diet high in protein from the breeder I got them from. The pneumonia was from getting chilled and being dehydrated and the dehydration could be from many things; poor lighting (powersun), poor calcium supplement (herptivite), and despite soaking daily.

I believe the breeder I got my two sulcatas from did not care for them the best. I did everything right that was recommended from you all and this site. I appreciate everything, it just wasn't enough for these guys. I originally posted being concerned about one, but as the vet pointed out some signs I realized that they both were sick.

I told my vet the day I took them in her office (last Thursday) that if I had to do it over again, and unfortunately now I do, that I would not purchase from a breeder. I would instead take a rescue. For the same reasons I didn't get my dog from a petstore and puppy mill.

I am very impressed with my vet. If one good thing came from this…I found a good vet.

She offered to help find me another pair. I think I will take some time to devote to my dog. Although I still ultimately want to have a couple of giant tortoises.

Thank you for all your help and advice.
 
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