Some tips on Greek Breeding?

[Meg90]

I've always wanted to breed tortoises and Anouk will be three this fall so I thought it was a good time to get my thread up to ask questions, and see if I can get some advice.

Anouk is a CB Jordanian Greek 2 1/2 yr old currently 6 6/8" SCL and 755 grams

Nigel is an adult male, WC Jordanian about 525g and 5 1/4" SCL

Is she large enough to introduce to him this summer? Or should I wait until she's closer to 8" SCL? I'm not sure how big she'll actually get, I just don't want to put her in harms way by doing this too young or too small.

What month is best to introduce them? He'll go in her enclosure since there's all that space, but how long should I leave them together if I witness bullying or fighting?

How long is the period of time in which Anouk will be gravid before she lays eggs? The average Greek clutch size is how many eggs?

How big of a laybox (depth, overall size) should be provided? Would using something like a paint tray do the trick? She's on all Aspen right now, so I could put a divider in and add a section of peat moss, or I could pop in a tray.

And what temp and humidity do the eggs have to be held at to hatch a mix of sexes?


I just pulled up my documents on both of my CB Greeks to look at how big their mothers were. Anouks mom is 6" SCL and weighs 930g and Novalee's mom was 7" SCL and 1,260g

So does that mean that Anouk is close to her adult size, but just needs to gain weight before its a good idea to pair her up?

Halp!
Thanks!

 

[Tom]

Don't have your answers, but HELLO Meg.

 

[Meg90]

Hey Tom I'm hoping this will bring me back into the tortoise world a bit. With three healthy, happy eating machines I kinda tapered off here. I'd love to get another species of tort someday but the bill for the bulbs and the spring mix is daunting But I keep telling myself if I started really small again it wouldn't be so bad

----or I can just hatch my own wee ones I spose Is Danny still on hiatus?

 

[Yvonne G]

That's a good way to put it...yes, Danny is still on hiatus!

Welcome back, Meg.

 

[Meg90]

Thanks Yvonne---

No one has any info on this subject?

 

[GBtortoises]

Meg,

I'd love to offer you some information, I have bred Ibera Greeks and other Mediterranean species for years, but I think my tortoises situation in captivity is much different than your's so my breeding techniques probably aren't going to be of much usefulness to you.

But I can offer a few general pointers:

I've had far more consistency and sucess breeding tortoises outdoors than indoors. Others have had pretty good luck indoors, even fewere have had some consistency. It can be done.

Introduction time is tricky. Most of their breeding cycles depend very much on a change of weather from cooler to hotter along with an increase in daylight hours and intensity. The latter is often overlooked by many people indoors. Tortoises have a pineal gland, also called a third eye, that senses light duration and intensity. You can increase duration but without increasing intensity it may not trigger a tortoise to breed because it's brain is not telling it that the light is more intense which to them means that the sun is higher, days are longer-it's egg laying time. Tortoises can be "fooled" into thinking it's anytime of the year under completely artificial conditions as long as they have no external exposure to outside light or temperatures. This is the main reason that tortoises kept completely indoors 24/7 will often breed at times other than spring and more often.

It's often more sucessful introducing females to an already established male territory. The main purpose for a males inclination to maintain and defend his territory is for breeding rights to any female that enters into his territory. Males will often scramble to a female (or other male) placed into their territory, sniff the new tortoise to determine if it's male or female, in some species (like Russians) some head bobbing usually takes place also. Upon deciding if he should mount it or fight it, the male goes into action.

If you seperate them everytime the male "attacks" the female, they probably aren't going to sucessfully mate or at least the chances of sucess will be greatly decreased. Like it or not, violence is part of their courtship ritual. It's how a male gets a female to submit. If after several attempts she does not, then injury can be a concern. This is assuming that both are prepared to breed. Males will continue to try relentlessly. But if a females mind (and body) isn't sending her the breeding signal it's not going to happen, no matter how persistent the male is.

Most Greek species lay anywhere from 3-6 eggs per clutch. Much of it depends upon species and size of the tortoise. Bigger, older females tend to lay more eggs. Once bred they may eggs anywhere from about 2 weeks to 6 weeks. Most of mine carry about 3-4 weeks.

A nesting box needs to be about 8" deep or deeper for the average size female Greek of most species. The larger surface area the better too. Nothing says they're going to nest dead center of the site. Soil that is hydrated, mixed with some Sphagnum or leaf litter is a good nesting medium. It can be wet but it can't be dry either. It has to hold it's shape when dug in. If it continues to collapse she will look to nest elsewhere. If it is dripping wet she will most likely look elsewhere too.

 

[GBtortoises]

After I read over my above post I've come to realize that I usually write too much in these posts! Or is it that I go into too much detail for what should be shorter answers? Sorry I'm not very good at yes and no answers!
LOL

 

[jeffbens0n]

If someone is interested in credible experience based information I think they are or should be more than willing to read everything you write...I enjoy posts like that.

 

[Yvonne G]

After I read over my above post I've come to realize that I usually write too much in these posts! Or is it that I go into too much detail for what should be shorter answers? Sorry I'm not very good at yes and no answers!
LOL

Hey, no apology required or necessary. I have no intention of breeding Mediterranean tortoises, but found your post very informative and interesting.

 

[dmmj]

some barry white perhaps?

 

[GBtortoises]

"some barry white perhaps?"

My co-workers always joke that I play Barry White on a speaker out in my field to get me tortoises in the mood!

You're just setting yourself up for a verbal beating when you say to people: "I breed tortoises".

You might as well be saying: "I run around naked with a rubber ducky and clown make-up on". People are going to laugh and before they're done they're going to think of every related bad joke that they can!

 

[dmmj]

I don't have a rubber ducky

 

[Meg90]

Thanks for all that info!

Is she old enough to be breeding by this summer? She will be almost three if I do a June/July introduction, like 2 yrs and 9 or 10 months of age

Does she just need to beef up a bit?

 

[GBtortoises]

Both the male and female are big enough in terms of size. Age may be a different story. Some say age doesn't matter with tortoises, only size. Based on my own experience I have never had a Ibera Greek, Hermann's or Marginated female produce eggs before they were almost 2/3 of their final adult size and over 6 years old. Most didn't start producing eggs until they were 7 & 8 years old. But mine also grow at a slower, more natural rate than many people seem to be doing nowadays. For example I currently have a group of Ibera Greeks that were born here in 2008, of six of them, the largest (a female) is 4", the rest are all around 3-3.25". Generally speaking, your female probably isn't going to get much bigger than 7-7.5" and the male much bigger than 6-6.5". Very few Gracea subspecies, with the exception of ibera get much larger than 8" for females and 6" for males. But overall mature adult size can vary based on the wild group that the parents came from. There are always exceptions to the "rule"!