Some translated notes on G. sulcata

Kapidolo Farms

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mike taylor said:
Will said:
mike taylor said:
I think these guys eat more protein than I've read or seen here in the forum . I read here in this thead they eat lizards and bugs . So Tom do you feed animal protein to your sulcatas ? Or do you give plant proteins? I just find it hard to believe an animal of this size don't take in protein in a higher levels than some dietd suggests.

Read my diet threads then.

Can you post a link ? Please sir.

This is the most predominate post I have made regarding diet issues, though you might be disappointed that in this thread I did not bang the protein drum http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-81609.html

My use and implementation of more than 9% protein (what most commercial whole diet tortoise foods have) has been sprinkled into several posts over several months. The most memorable for me was with Yellowturtle, he's got excellent communication skills and does not create debate where non is needed.

In short the GI is a processing line, and it's efficiency is based on limiting nutrients (aside from temp in exotherms). Maybe this was demonstrated in a simple high school biology lab experiment, where the three biggies for algae were measured out and added to water, so the class could see that if there was not a balance, more of any one nutrient did not make the algae grow better.

This is why the teacher did this lab in my high school biology class, to make this simple principle make sense to us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebig's_law_of_the_minimum

So, in the quest for optimal conditions, protein often becomes the limiting factor for tortoises, thank you pyramiding theorists. Though to be fair for a short while I got sucked into that argument, but what tortoises do, eat feces in abundance when available sorta negated that for me.

At that point in my career I worked for a poultry company, and their vet, also a reptile guy, said he didn't think chelonians, any, are pyramided because of protein as a stand alone explanatory factor, though he had no alternate POV either.

blah blah blah.

Anther part of that processing line (tortoise GI) is strongly correlated to gut transit time, determined by 'roughage' and temp.
 

Tom

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Will said:
So, in the quest for optimal conditions, protein often becomes the limiting factor for tortoises, thank you pyramiding theorists. Though to be fair for a short while I got sucked into that argument, but what tortoises do, eat feces in abundance when available sorta negated that for me.

I'm not sure where you stand on this Will. What do you mean?

What do you mean, "thank you pyramiding theorists", and what argument does eating feces negate for you? Do you mean that all this worry about protein is unfounded? Is ungulate feces high in protein?
 

Testudoresearch

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Will said:
So, in the quest for optimal conditions, protein often becomes the limiting factor for tortoises, thank you pyramiding theorists. Though to be fair for a short while I got sucked into that argument, but what tortoises do, eat feces in abundance when available sorta negated that for me.

At that point in my career I worked for a poultry company, and their vet, also a reptile guy, said he didn't think chelonians, any, are pyramided because of protein as a stand alone explanatory factor, though he had no alternate POV either.

blah blah blah.

Anther part of that processing line (tortoise GI) is strongly correlated to gut transit time, determined by 'roughage' and temp.

I am afraid I am finding it rather difficult to understand you. Could you please make your points simply, and clearly, as presently it is far from obvious what - precisely - you mean.

Will said:
he didn't think chelonians, any, are pyramided because of protein as a stand alone explanatory factor

That is probably because a) They are not and b) I don't know of anyone who understands reptile nutrition adequately who has ever claimed that this was the case. Quite a lot of people who do not understand it adequately have said so, and those of us who have discussed its connection to the problem have also regularly been misquoted on the topic.

For the record - just to make this 100% clear - I personally have no more ever said "protein causes pyramiding" any more than Captain Kirk said "Beam me up, Scotty" or James Cagney said "You dirty rat".


What I have said - very consistently - is that excessively high (compared to typical wild levels) of protein intake promote accelerated rates of growth (I don't know anyone who argues otherwise), results in higher serum urea levels that have consequences for long-term renal health and that achieving healthy bone mineral densities on high growth rate regimes is much more difficult than on slow-growth regimes. I also pointed out (as long ago as 1988) that there appears to be a link between certain types of high-protein diet in chelonia and excess keratin production. This is not at all inconsistent with what is observed in other animals, for example:

"The horny tissue of the claws, which grows continually, is protein based (keratin) and thus not only does the pig require an adequate protein level in the diet but excessive protein can stimulate excess growth and deformity (figs1 & 2)).

Source

The link between keratin and stresses on the skeleton are indeed major factors in the physiology and pathology of "shell deformities" in certain classes of chelonia.
 

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