South African Leopard and hibernation

[mikeh]

Does anyone hibernate their GPP?

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[Baoh]

No, but I have been intrigued by the possibility. Of several types of tortoises, actually.

 

[FLINTUS]

I had to comment on this as we have been discussing this on another forum.
Firstly, I do believe there are a few keepers in the US that hibernate S.African leopards during winter.
Logically, it would make sense-well most S.African tortoises do truly hibernate anually, not just slow down.
But does it provide any health benefits? With any tortoises from the genus testudo, it definitely does, but the question is for GPP, the mountainous ranges of the red foots, the majority of the hingebacks etc-any southern hemisphere tortoise really- is it something done on purpose, or is it an adaptation they may or may not do depending on the environment that year?
I have thought of trying a kind of slow down for my reds and hinges this winter, but then quickly said to myself, not a good idea as there is not enough info on it.

 

[nate.mann]

I was thinking about this earlier today, but due to how unhealthy the leopard im rescuing tomorrow is, theres no way. I don't think I will for a few years (if he/she makes it that long), and I will then decide whether or not I should.

 

[cdmay]

I don't know if I would. For me the big questions would be "Do I know for sure that the animal is a G.p.p. and if so, from a population that experiences prolonged cold?" and then, "is hibernation something it needs to do--or something it can simply survive?"

 

[yagyujubei]

Though most will say it is not so, I have talked with people in SA who believe it is, especially in areas that get snow. Ed Pirog has strong ideas about this. I think it should be attempted by only the most experienced keepers, though.

 

[Neal]

A lot of good points brought up already. Just by way of opinion I would not do it for the reasons cdmay brought up.

Like Dennis said, if you want some information from someone who has hibernated leopards, talk to Ed Pirog.

I had one little male for about 5 years. He was an exteemely active and healthy tortoise, but every fall he would almost completely shut down. He would eat very little for a couple of months and wouldnt move around as much as the others.

 

[mikeh]

Could the fact that GPP hibernates in nature be one of the factors how they grow? Putting pyramiding aside, from hundreds of pictures I have looked at of sub adults, adults, even juveniles, in every picture I see noticeable differences between wild and captive raised torts.

For one, bodies of captive raised tortoises seem much larger/thicker for their shell when compared to wild tortoises, and vice versa in wild tortoises the head and limbs appear almost small/tiny for their shell when compared to captive raised counterparts.

Two, the shell of all wild torts has a nice domed/round shape as to much flatter shape in captives.

Three, much more marginal flaring is seen in captives. In fact I yet have to see one picture of captive raised sub adult or adult that is not flared. In most photos of wild GPP I see very little to some flaring.

Four, in captives the walls of the shell appears thicker on sub adults and adults, while in wild shell appears thinner.

Could lack of hibernation in captives and their metabolism running wide open 365/year be ONE for the factors causing these physical differences.

It also makes me wonder on long term health effects, 30-40 years down the road, if in fact they are truly hibernating subspieces.




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[Tom]

I lived in SA for four months and had the opportunity to see a lot of wild tortoises and talk to a lot of locals. One of our crew lived in the mountains in SA in a pretty remote area. He said he had lots of wild leopards around him and they most certainly did hibernate in winter as it frequently snows there. He told me that they do not hibernate in other parts of the range where it does not get so cold.

I saw some wild ones on the coast down at the Cape Preserve Lighthouse tourist area. It was sunny, 50-55 degrees with 30-40 mph winds and those tortoises were running around like nothing was wrong. There were just truckin' along and going about their business like any other day. The tortoises down there were very dark and very distinct looking, and they don't look like the SA leopards we have here. I suspect the SA leopards we have here, like the ones that Torts R us recently posted pics of, and the adults that so many of our forum member's Gpp came out of, are from the North of SA. Maybe Joberg or Pretoria. I don't have any verification of their exact origin one way or the other, but they look decidedly different to me.

I would not attempt to hibernate any leopard unless you are 100% certain exactly where in the range they came from. SA is a huge place and the climates and conditions vary just as much as they do here in the US. Consider Phoenix compared to Denver, or Miami vs. San Francisco.

I have never noticed the flaring you keep talking about, but now I'm going to start paying attention to it. I will also go back and review the pics of WCs that I have. My Gpp supplier also has three locality specific Gpb groups and he pointed out the carapace flaring and degree of serration on the flares as one of the distinguishing features to me.

There is no doubt that captive raised tortoises look different than wild tortoises of the same species. This is true for all of them, not just leopards. When looking at leopards keep in mind the age of the animals you are looking at. Most of the captive animals you see pics of are fairly young animals while most of the WC one you see pics of are decades old.

 

[diamondbp]

Strangely enough the adult sulcatas I have we're keep outside year round for 8 years before I adopted them. Although I live in Louisiana I know for a fact that they were outside while it snowed and that was when they were only 5inches in length.
Of course now that I have them they have a heated shed with a giant heated pig mat that they rest on during the winter, but it's still shocking that they spent so many winters without any heat source.
Although the winters down here don't get incredibly cold, they are incredibly humid winters which is still dangerous. They both developed normally and produce hatchlings together.

Just thought I would share that.

 

[Yashil Ghazi]

Hi

I live in South Africa, and we have just come out of a long and cold winter.

Like Tom said, it depends were your tort comes from .I live in the warmest part of South Africa (durban) and I can say that leopards here most definitely do not hibernate. Its never snown here , and is always humid . I believe that the tortoises that have been imported to the US , were probably taken from either Cape Town , or Durban , as it seems strange that people would have brought leopards down all the way from Joburg as they occur around here aswell. Joburg leopards are well known to dissapear for a week or two (in winter ) , and just sleep , but the people who I have spoken to have said that they rarely sleep for more than 3 weeks. This is because not all winter days are cold here. Some can be extremely hot , and so it would be expected that tortoise would wake up and cruse around. However, one thing that is for sure is that all tortoises , wild and domestic , become a lot less active .right aromd now (spring) they become very active


I hope ive been helpful in some way. Please don't hesitate to ask me for any info on South African climate.

Ps .I have a yearling GPP.

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[diamondbp]

Thanks Yashil....definitely great info

 

[cdmay]

I lived in SA for four months and had the opportunity to see a lot of wild tortoises and talk to a lot of locals. One of our crew lived in the mountains in SA in a pretty remote area. He said he had lots of wild leopards around him and they most certainly did hibernate in winter as it frequently snows there. He told me that they do not hibernate in other parts of the range where it does not get so cold.

I saw some wild ones on the coast down at the Cape Preserve Lighthouse tourist area. It was sunny, 50-55 degrees with 30-40 mph winds and those tortoises were running around like nothing was wrong. There were just truckin' along and going about their business like any other day. The tortoises down there were very dark and very distinct looking, and they don't look like the SA leopards we have here. I suspect the SA leopards we have here, like the ones that Torts R us recently posted pics of, and the adults that so many of our forum member's Gpp came out of, are from the North of SA. Maybe Joberg or Pretoria. I don't have any verification of their exact origin one way or the other, but they look decidedly different to me.

I would not attempt to hibernate any leopard unless you are 100% certain exactly where in the range they came from. SA is a huge place and the climates and conditions vary just as much as they do here in the US. Consider Phoenix compared to Denver, or Miami vs. San Francisco.

I have never noticed the flaring you keep talking about, but now I'm going to start paying attention to it. I will also go back and review the pics of WCs that I have. My Gpp supplier also has three locality specific Gpb groups and he pointed out the carapace flaring and degree of serration on the flares as one of the distinguishing features to me.

There is no doubt that captive raised tortoises look different than wild tortoises of the same species. This is true for all of them, not just leopards. When looking at leopards keep in mind the age of the animals you are looking at. Most of the captive animals you see pics of are fairly young animals while most of the WC one you see pics of are decades old.

It does seem to be the case that some populations of leopard tortoises in S.A. are decidedly darker than others. A friend of mine traveled all over the region a few years ago and of course photographed many of the leopards. I was surprised at how variable they were. But I think the darker animals tended to be from more mountainous areas. Maybe the darker coloration is an adaptation to warming up quicker as it is with many snakes?
Tom, please post some W/C photos!

Yashil--thanks for the info.Post photos too!

 

[Yashil Ghazi]

Hey

Yes , some leopards here are very dark when they get old, and have almost no patterns. Those ones are almost always from the higher up areas and are actually called Mountain tortoises by locals , but are pretty much leopards.The leopards down here have their leopard like patterns and colours.

Ive added a pic of my tortoises that I took this morning. He spends the day outside in his pen , and inside , because of the numerouse predators that lurk in the dark here.ive also added a pic of my tortoises enclosure , just for interest sake.

This time of year , winter is ending, and its getting hot. I would also like to back up Toms belief of leopards needing humidity. In durban/capetown /and pretty much anywhere coastal in South Africa, its very humid. The only time it will ever become dry is in winter . Right now its actually so warm , you can prettymuch sleep outside naked



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[Tom]

It does seem to be the case that some populations of leopard tortoises in S.A. are decidedly darker than others. A friend of mine traveled all over the region a few years ago and of course photographed many of the leopards. I was surprised at how variable they were. But I think the darker animals tended to be from more mountainous areas. Maybe the darker coloration is an adaptation to warming up quicker as it is with many snakes?
Tom, please post some W/C photos!

The dark ones I saw were right on the coast. Literally a stones throw from the cliff edges that would drop you into the water where the Indian and Atlantic Oceans meet.

Fun Fact: You can actually see a line in the water where the two oceans meet and it extends all the way to the horizon. The colliding currents and mixing temps and salinities cause a turbulence that can be easily seen on the surface.

 

[Neal]

Good info all around.

There is a South African herp. forum that has a few active tortoise owners. A couple of them have said that their tortoises hibernate.

 

[Tom]

Hey

Yes , some leopards here are very dark when they get old, and have almost no patterns. Those ones are almost always from the higher up areas and are actually called Mountain tortoises by locals , but are pretty much leopards.The leopards down here have their leopard like patterns and colours.

Ive added a pic of my tortoises that I took this morning. He spends the day outside in his pen , and inside , because of the numerouse predators that lurk in the dark here.ive also added a pic of my tortoises enclosure , just for interest sake.

This time of year , winter is ending, and its getting hot. I would also like to back up Toms belief of leopards needing humidity. In durban/capetown /and pretty much anywhere coastal in South Africa, its very humid. The only time it will ever become dry is in winter . Right now its actually so warm , you can prettymuch sleep outside naked

Thank you for this valuable info Yashil. You have given me a piece of the puzzle that I have been missing for years. Sulcatas are hatched during the rainy season, so this is easy to understand and explain, but Heather (Team Gomberg) and I were discussing how to account for leopards needing so much humidity when they have such a huge range, tremendous variability in their sizes and appearances, and exploit so many different climates and habitats all over the continent. When they get cold and damp here in the states they tend to get sick. So your cold and dry explanation makes perfect sense. It also makes sense that since they aren't eating or growing much during the cold dry season, that they would not be pyramiding either. When its warm enough to eat and grow, its humid. Mystery solved, or at least better understood than it was before you posted. Thank you!

I had forgotten the term "mountain tortoise" until you said it again. One of my fellow trainers was named "Spud" and we called him "The Mountain Man" because of where he lived. He is the one who told me about the "mountain tortoises", the snow, and the hibernation. I cannot remember where he lived though. He told me, but this was back in 2005 and I can't remember any more.

I never made it up to Durban, but we got as far North as George. Stayed there for three weeks. Beautiful country. Looks like the Pacific Northwest there.

I was there from March until June, so I got to experience your fall. There were days that were extremely hot and humid in Capetown early in the trip, and other days that were rainy and near freezing in Summerset West (wine country) near the end of the trip. Fantastic country...

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Yes, thank you for sharing Yashil

 

[HerbsMommy]

Leopards don't hibernate

 

[mikeh]

Thanks everyone for their insight. Its very interesting and much appreciated. The thought of hibernating will be put on back burner, for now.

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