Spending a lot of time in the cold end

andyhubbert

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Hi

Firstly I’m new to all this and I have done my research prior to buying my Hermanns (called Tim)

I suppose I’m really scared something is up with him.

I’ve had him for 2 days now. The first day he was pretty active but today he has been really subdued. He’s up in the corner and has burrowed down. He was taken outside earlier and ate some clover. I’ve bathed him and placed him back under his power sun (combined heat and UV) but he moved back

Is this okay? He hasn’t really been under the UV much today

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Yvonne G

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Hi, and welcome!

Your tortoise looks to be about full grown. Full grown tortoises don't really like being cooped up indoors in SMALL enclosures, and your tortoise table is too small for him. But what you're seeing is actually quite normal. Tortoises are territorial and he's sulking because he doesn't want to be there. He wants to be back in his old territory. They don't like or appreciate change.

I think he would be much better off if you were to set him up outside in a nice, safe and secure outdoor enclosure, only bringing him in during inclement weather. Then, his indoor enclosure should be twice the size of that tort table. He also needs to have the choice of hiding places, some sight barriers (plants, a big rock, a knick knack, etc.), a waterer and a piece of slate or tile to eat off of. Once you have all that "stuff" added to his enclosure, you'll see what I mean about your tort table being too small. They also like to dig down into the substrate, so four or five inches of substrate would be nice.

What kind of lighting are you using?

Please take a look at our care sheet:

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/

(If I guessed wrong and Tim is NOT a Hermanns, then take a look at the Greek care sheet Here):

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/greek-tortoise-testudo-graeca-care-sheet-overview.87146/
 

andyhubbert

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Hi

He’s only 2 so I don’t think he’s fully grown?

I do need to build him an outside enclosure at some point but at the moment everything is so dry I can’t dig it out!!!

He’s got hides but doesn’t use them, he’s got a water dish but doesn’t use that either [emoji23]

Temps are 23 cold end and 30 under basking light

Using a combined UV and basking powersun at about 14hrs per day 100w

His indoor space is quite big and he doesn’t really explore tending to stay in one place most of the day. He has moved to the warm end today and is basking but again tending to stay here inactive
 

lisa127

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He does not look full grown to me when I see his size in comparison to that dial thermometer (which is not accurate btw). But I agree with Yvonne on the rest of her post. He needs lots of choices on hides and a deep substrate. A cluttered type enclosure.....
The hide (s) you are providing, what are the like? Big roomy open hides will not be used. He needs to feel secure and hidden. And a sparse enclosure that is open space will not make them feel secure
Can we see photos of the entire enclosure?
 

andyhubbert

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I’ve ordered some coir that is coming tonight to make it all deeper as I don’t think I have deep enough substrate

I’ve got a digital one on the hot side that is saying 39.8oC which I was a little concerned with?! But he seems to like it

Think I need a lot more stuff. Did have an oregano plant in there but he kept knocking it over!

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Yvonne G

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Ok, I see now that I was totally wrong. Small picture gave me the wrong impression. I would get another light, maybe just a plain old incandescent light and place the fixture over the "cold" side. Baby tortoises really shouldn't have too much of a drop in temperature.
 

lisa127

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It's not too bad, but i would just add lots more stuff. Clumps of moss, plant pots on their side half buried, cork bark, more fake plants.....there is too much open space.
The little white things in substrate concern me. I'm afraid your tort will eat that.
 

andyhubbert

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He hasn’t got too much of a drop. Well it’s 15oC I suppose.

Okay so add more stuff I thought moss wasn’t great as it would increase the humidity?

It’s tortoise life substrate. Mix of top soil, play sand and limestone flour so the white bits are the limestone and calcium. He hasn’t tried to eat it yet

When I get the coir later I was going to mainly put it up one end to make that deeper and more burrow friendly - is this a good idea?
 

katieandiggy

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He hasn’t got too much of a drop. Well it’s 15oC I suppose.

Okay so add more stuff I thought moss wasn’t great as it would increase the humidity?

It’s tortoise life substrate. Mix of top soil, play sand and limestone flour so the white bits are the limestone and calcium. He hasn’t tried to eat it yet

When I get the coir later I was going to mainly put it up one end to make that deeper and more burrow friendly - is this a good idea?

Hey Andy, the issue with the tortoise life substrate is that they like to eat the calcium/limestone but with that they also ingest sand, and that can cause gut impact ion. Also sand is not good for their eyes. Not everyone has a problem but certainly some people on here have had issues with sand.
I have a Russian and I have a temperature drop at night. I don’t have any night heat at all, I allow it to go as low as around 65f which is fine for the Mediterranean species.
 

andyhubbert

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Right so I’m better with coir or just topsoil then?

Yeh I’m letting it drop at night but Yvonne was on about my cold end needing to have less of a drop. Also what are people’s hot end temps. Mines around 38-40 Celsius. Seems high!
 

katieandiggy

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Personally I use a thick layer of coir with fine grade orchid bark on top. Coir can be a little messy on its own but it is good at holding moisture. It’s easier for them to burrow in too.

I know this subject is one that Tom and Yvonne disagree on. I was advised that a temperature drop at night can benefit the Mediterranean species. Hermanni Chris also agreed with the theory. My cool end is around 70f right now and my basking is 98f

I would aim for around 35-38c under the basking lamp
 

andyhubbert

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Great! Well it’s currently pretty warm in the UK and the house is pretty well insulated so he’s only getting a drop to a low of 20. I’ve also got a ceramic heater to kick in if lower than 19 anyway

I thought I’d researched well beforehand! Clearly not!!

Coir is just cooling after it’s water has been added so I’ll post a photo when all added
 

andyhubbert

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So here it is. Took the opportunity to change around a few things and going to get more bark, logs and plants tomorrow

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He’s grumpy now as I had to wake him up and take him out so he wasn’t buried!!! Not sure he quite knows what to make of it!!
 

katieandiggy

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It looks great.

There is only one more thing I would add (other than some plants)

A saucer for water that he can actually get in.

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They are about 50p from a garden centre and come in different sizes.
 

andyhubbert

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Brilliant I shall add it to the list!

Thanks so much for all the help guys and feel free to keep supplying it! I have learnt a lot!

Does anyone get concerned that coir is damp? I’m thinking in regards to humidity and shell rot?
 

katieandiggy

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You don’t have to keep it wet.. I let my coir dry out a bit. The Mediterranean species benefit from moderate humidity but don’t need as much as say a leopard or red foot. I would aim for about 60-70% humidity.
Have you thought about an outside enclosure? I’m not sure on your circumstances but you can make one really cheap. Here is mine:

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I found that I saw a massive change in my tortoise once he started going outside for a few hours in the sun.
 

andyhubbert

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Have you thought about an outside enclosure? I’m not sure on your circumstances but you can make one really cheap.

I am looking into making something similar as was going to do a raise bed design with wood but it’s just going to be too complex and too much work so the sandpit design looks ideal. What do you do in winter or when it rains? Does it drain well?

What plants grow well in there?
 

katieandiggy

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I am looking into making something similar as was going to do a raise bed design with wood but it’s just going to be too complex and too much work so the sandpit design looks ideal. What do you do in winter or when it rains? Does it drain well?

What plants grow well in there?

This is my first year of having it. When the weather turns for winter I will just empty it out and start fresh again next year.

The pool was £9.99 from The Range, I used coco coir but I’ve since added a load of graded sterilise topsoil (from wicks) a couple of terracotta pots 60p each.
I bought a picked of tortoise seeds from Shelled Warriors shop on eBay and that’s he big bush you see. If you were starting from scratch I would recommend growing them in a pot and transplanting them into the pool as otherwise they will be trod down really quickly before they get a chance to grow. Other plants are kept in pots, campanula and nemesia are my torts favourites.

Forgot to mention, I made drainage holes in the bottom of the pool to help with rainwater, no issues with it so far it drains pretty well.
 
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