[split] Indian Star tortoise shell question

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Preet917

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shanu303 said:
Preet917 said:
shanu303 said:
Preet917 said:
shanu303 said:
Ok let's just not argue further on this..... i've seen threads which have this long spanning argument which ended to no possible EQUAL conclusion for all......
@Preet and Redari you wish to achieve a shine on you torts shell.... well go for it.... it's your call and they're your torts so it's just personal preference.....)

while me and arotester will stick to our belief and we're good with untreated shell.....again its just personal preference :)

so are we cool on this ???

:)

I don't believe there was any "argument" here on the pros/cons of applying shell "enhancing" substances to a tort's shell.
I look at it as a meaningful debate wherein we can hear out both sides and have practical experiments performed on the same, the results of which may vary depending upon location.
My question was aimed at primarily encouraging a debate or rather a discussion on the topic and I wish for it to continue.
This thread is not to hear out a choice based on personal preference or perception but rather to generate the pros and cons of the topic based on personal experience or even reliable sources.

there is no sense in rekindling a topic which has been left unanswered by the experts for the very reason that the topic in actuality has no end..... again as i said it's personal preference because the oil or ointment does not do anything beneficial to the tort other than improving the look of the shell...... please do read Tom's thread that Redari mentioned.... Tom has "experimentally" proven that there is no such difference in shells treated with vita shell and the ones without it. again it's all cosmetic...... and about this being a debate..... we all are correct in our places because we want something better for our tort.... be it the shine on the shell that you want or the natural "Breathing Shell" look which i and arotester want to be untouched....... so i think there is no further use of discussing what better the oil will do to the tort........ honestly what i want to say is that if the Oil was any good or beneficial... then the torts somehow would have received it on their shell .... nature could have implemented a way to do so.......

but if you still want to debate on this ..... then count me in :) but again as i said there is no end to this :tort:

If you have to make comparisons on an "in the wild" basis for such a topic then it would be prudent to leave your tortoise to fend for itself in the wild. All it's needs would be taken care of by "nature".
Do you know why torts tend to live longer lives in captivity than in the wild? Because many benefits and comforts which they do not enjoy readily or at all in the wild are available to them in captivity.
You can't cage an animal and then justify it's care with an "in the wild" phrase all the time.
For example, pyramiding in the Indian star occurs naturally in the wild whereas it may not occur at all in captivity due to the adequate nourishment which it readily receives. If the "in the wild" argument was always the utmost justification or reason, then one would tend to feed the tort less just so that it's shell would pyramid just like "in the wild".
Sufficient experimentation is required before a solid conclusion can be arrived at. You cannot simply carry out an experiment for a short duration of a couple of weeks or months and then expect conclusive results.
first of all I DIDN'T cage Max........ I RESCUED him....... he was in very horrible condition to be fed tomatoes and cucumber only i have no intention to keep MAX as "PET" forever..... i intended to leave him in the wild,where he came from... but he got used to the feeding "tame " behaviour and couldn't have survived or could become a PREY to other humans... here i leave him and there someone else catches him for pet... i believe in providing as natural as possible environment for the tort...... and for your information tortoises get BETTER nourishment in the wild then in captivity with you or me or anybody....... its nature's balance and mechanism which is way above our HUMAN BRAINS.......indian star tortoises are meant to pyramid to some extent..... that's why they are pyramided in the wild now and always have been....... and have you seen pics of wild sulcata and red foot torts??? they are smooth shelled in the wild.... so how do you justify your statement with that????nature has every living creature's back covered.... those are meant to be smooth by nature and so they are smooth shelled in wild......Stars are meant to pyramid .... the pyramiding helps them turn themselves up if they tip off ...well thats just a theory....... and the oil and ointment does not do any benefit to your tort... it just fulfils your content of seeing the shell shiny........ and Tom is one of the most experienced member around on this forum and he has studied and worked on torts for more than 20 years.... his experimentation and proof isn't flawed and it is completely justified.... although a few months is not that enough but it is sufficient to tell or prove that oil and ointment don't do any better than normal water sprays on shell................ seeing your last statements it seems you haven't read all the pages of Tom's thread mentioned by Redari..... the proof is in front of your eyes..........
but still if you don't want to believe the proof in Tom's thread then you can carry on and experiment by yourself and tell us the result if we're wrong.... i am always open to criticism and arguments :)and if i am wrong then i will whole-heartedly apologise to you and others whom i've stated wrong.....:)

and lastly me and many other members on this forum strive to maintain or achieve a habitat as wild/natural as possible for the torts........ that's the reason for all those plants(well aside form feeding purpose) are being planted in the enclosures to make it look and feel as natural as possible to the torts...... they aren't domestic animals which you want to pet and tame..... they are wild and exotics..... they are never meant to be tamed..... and let me tell you my real goal of keeping torts...... i keep max and soon am going to bring a female... because i intend to start a breeding program and release juveniles in the wild to boost up and sustain the wild population........ and lastly torts are more threatened by humans than the wild.....

I have read Tom's thread. Not all the comments in it, only the updates he had posted.
And yes, his conclusion was that the torts neither benefit nor do they suffer from the application of a substance (vitashell)

But again I maintain that a significant duration of time is required to study the effects (if any) and arrive at a conclusion.
The topic of discussion here is clear and my comment was only in response to the "in the wild" phrase which is thrown around a lot to justify tortoise care. And hence, the reasons for keeping your star in captivity falls out of the context of this topic.
And the pyramiding example I provided is specific to the Indian star tortoise. Kindly refer to my previous post for clarity on the matter.
Shanu my friend, I mean no hard feelings at all. And please don't consider this an argument because it isn't one, it's just a discussion among like-minded individuals who want the best for their tort out of their natural habitat. Our opinions my differ, but our ultimate intention remains the same.
Jai Hind :)
 

arotester

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Nature is smarter than people think and torts survived for so many years because of their ability to adapt.We can only try and mimic the nature when it comes to captivity and it cannot be done perfectly.So if nature doesn't have any oils on their shells then why do we have to be so stubborn to apply it on their shells.
One more thing i want to share here is that no tort has natural pyramiding(not even stars).If you see torts in wild that are pyramided, then i doubt they are wild torts.Also, pyramiding isn't caused by diet,it is the effect of low moisture in contact with the shell.(don't get confused between MBD and pyramiding).
Plz try to debate on something useful :)
 

shanu303

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arotester said:
Nature is smarter than people think and torts survived for so many years because of their ability to adapt.We can only try and mimic the nature when it comes to captivity and it cannot be done perfectly.So if nature doesn't have any oils on their shells then why do we have to be so stubborn to apply it on their shells.
One more thing i want to share here is that no tort has natural pyramiding(not even stars).If you see torts in wild that are pyramided, then i doubt they are wild torts.Also, pyramiding isn't caused by diet,it is the effect of low moisture in contact with the shell.(don't get confused between MBD and pyramiding).
Plz try to debate on something useful :)

i agree with you on the first part.... can you please show us a single photo of a wild star that isn't pyramided.... i'm not telling the pyramiding that we have in captivity but just a little.... not that severe ....... please don't interpret it wrong...... i haven't seen a single pic of a wild star that doesn't have a little pyramiding ..... and one thing i want to say is their shells can never be as smooth as redfoots or sulcatas in wild....... maybe they aren't meant to be that smooth....... maube that's why they belong to arid regions with less moisture....... stars from tamilnadu, andhrapradesh are smoother as compared to the ones found in gujarat as humidity is high in south.......
 

arotester

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shanu303 said:
arotester said:
Nature is smarter than people think and torts survived for so many years because of their ability to adapt.We can only try and mimic the nature when it comes to captivity and it cannot be done perfectly.So if nature doesn't have any oils on their shells then why do we have to be so stubborn to apply it on their shells.
One more thing i want to share here is that no tort has natural pyramiding(not even stars).If you see torts in wild that are pyramided, then i doubt they are wild torts.Also, pyramiding isn't caused by diet,it is the effect of low moisture in contact with the shell.(don't get confused between MBD and pyramiding).
Plz try to debate on something useful :)

i agree with you on the first part.... can you please show us a single photo of a wild star that isn't pyramided.... i'm not telling the pyramiding that we have in captivity but just a little.... not that severe ....... please don't interpret it wrong...... i haven't seen a single pic of a wild star that doesn't have a little pyramiding ..... and one thing i want to say is their shells can never be as smooth as redfoots or sulcatas in wild....... maybe they aren't meant to be that smooth....... maube that's why they belong to arid regions with less moisture....... stars from tamilnadu, andhrapradesh are smoother as compared to the ones found in gujarat as humidity is high in south.......

My point here is that the wild tortoises that you saw were pyramided must definitely have some human interference in their life,thus these torts cannot be called wild.Mostly when these torts graze they come across various fields of farmers and they eat their crops,so what are you going to call such torts captive or wild?
To support my statement look at some reports/pics of wild caught torts below which are barely pyramided:
http://thestickytongue.org/2010/10/04/tortoises-smuggler-caught-for-second-time-in-bangkok/
http://www.hindu.com/2006/10/15/stories/2006101518390400.htm
http://www.hindu.com/2005/07/28/images/2005072814780301.jpg
http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01127/29THTORTOISES_1127839e.jpg
http://124.109.24.121/vayupak/images/news/fulls/customs020654-4-20110603125828.jpg

I didn't see any pyramided tort in those.I can post more if you want.
 

shanu303

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arotester said:
shanu303 said:
arotester said:
Nature is smarter than people think and torts survived for so many years because of their ability to adapt.We can only try and mimic the nature when it comes to captivity and it cannot be done perfectly.So if nature doesn't have any oils on their shells then why do we have to be so stubborn to apply it on their shells.
One more thing i want to share here is that no tort has natural pyramiding(not even stars).If you see torts in wild that are pyramided, then i doubt they are wild torts.Also, pyramiding isn't caused by diet,it is the effect of low moisture in contact with the shell.(don't get confused between MBD and pyramiding).
Plz try to debate on something useful :)

i agree with you on the first part.... can you please show us a single photo of a wild star that isn't pyramided.... i'm not telling the pyramiding that we have in captivity but just a little.... not that severe ....... please don't interpret it wrong...... i haven't seen a single pic of a wild star that doesn't have a little pyramiding ..... and one thing i want to say is their shells can never be as smooth as redfoots or sulcatas in wild....... maybe they aren't meant to be that smooth....... maube that's why they belong to arid regions with less moisture....... stars from tamilnadu, andhrapradesh are smoother as compared to the ones found in gujarat as humidity is high in south.......

My point here is that the wild tortoises that you saw were pyramided must definitely have some human interference in their life,thus these torts cannot be called wild.Mostly when these torts graze they come across various fields of farmers and they eat their crops,so what are you going to call such torts captive or wild?
To support my statement look at some reports/pics of wild caught torts below which are barely pyramided:
http://thestickytongue.org/2010/10/04/tortoises-smuggler-caught-for-second-time-in-bangkok/
http://www.hindu.com/2006/10/15/stories/2006101518390400.htm
http://www.hindu.com/2005/07/28/images/2005072814780301.jpg
http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01127/29THTORTOISES_1127839e.jpg
http://124.109.24.121/vayupak/images/news/fulls/customs020654-4-20110603125828.jpg

I didn't see any pyramided tort in those.I can post more if you want.

all of those pics are of juveniles or torts which aren't fully grown...... what i meant by pyramiding in shell was for the fully matured adult stars....... i've seen every single pic you posted before..... but i didn't meant to refer to those... they are hardly 7-8 years old...... but i get your point regarding that ........
 
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